Ex-cop manhunt in LA; tragedy ensues

[rpgdemon]

Originally Posted by Sifright

Edit: I also don't see where any of the other police officers involved had mental illnesses.

Unless you are ascribing believing you are above the law and immune to such.
and that Hating on black people is a mental illness.

In which case all I can say is what.

Also, to respond to this, yes, I believe that being a bigot is a sign of mental illness. There is no reason a sane, rational person would believe that they can and should harm others for being different than themselves. A mentally healthy person will realize that they cannot harm others for problems that have happened to them, and that harming others will not help their problems.

Bigots and racists blame minorities for their problems, or have an irrational fear and hatred of them, for being different. That is totally a sign of mental illness. Violent racists especially.

I do not believe bigotry itself is a mental illness, but bigots are mentally ill.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by rpgdemon

Also, to respond to this, yes, I believe that being a bigot is a sign of mental illness. There is no reason a sane, rational person would believe that they can and should harm others for being different than themselves. A mentally healthy person will realize that they cannot harm others for problems that have happened to them, and that harming others will not help their problems.

Bigots and racists blame minorities for their problems, or have an irrational fear and hatred of them, for being different. That is totally a sign of mental illness. Violent racists especially.

I do not believe bigotry itself is a mental illness, but bigots are mentally ill.

Actually, this reflects some serious bigotry against the mentally ill on your part, and this sort of thinking contributes to a the culture of oppression against the mentally ill.

Way to go.

[Magus]

I can't have any sympathy for someone who targets families of people he has problems with or shoots at any random cop he can see. And in any case killing people for firing you or being racist is an extreme measure, especially since there's no evidence he tried to do anything else with all this information (which is quite detailed and extensive and would be useful in and of itself perhaps to help create change) such as getting a journalist to write a story about it.

Basically it's someone jumping to the most extreme of actions without even attempting anything lesser. Combine this with his history of deployment to Iraq and it comes off as the actions of someone with PTSD or a mental illness. As eloquent a "manifesto" as it was (I actually read the whole thing, it is, again, quite detailed and fairly well written for this type of thing), it doesn't justify his killings at all.

It's unfortunate because I'm very sympathetic to his story and if he wasn't murdering people I'd basically be in agreement with him. It's unfortunate that he felt there wasn't any other way to get the attention of the public for his story and details of the various egresses of the LAPD other than to murder people.

Originally Posted by Kim

Actually, this reflects some serious bigotry against the mentally ill on your part, and this sort of thinking contributes to a the culture of oppression against the mentally ill.

Way to go.

How so? I'm pretty sure saying that people with violently racist thoughts are mentally ill is not saying that all people with mental illness are bigots.

On the other hand, I'm not sure why this is even in the conversation because this guy is not racist, but he does suffer from a mental illness, in my opinion...

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by stefan

Dude. It's the LAPD. They would literally firebomb slums if they could get away with it.

...There's either a lot of context with the LAPD that I'm missing by virtue of having never lived in Los Angeles, or you have a very dark, cynical view on law enforcement agencies.

I had a long Snakewall planned that attacked this as an intellectually lazy insinuation, but then I decided, nah, fuck it, I'm not going to even indirectly side with a law enforcement agency. Criminal Procedure Bar prep has left me irrevocably jaded. But, don't you think attributing this degree of malice to the LAPD might be a little hyperbolic?

[Magus]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

...There's either a lot of context with the LAPD that I'm missing by virtue of having never lived in Los Angeles, or you have a very dark, cynical view on law enforcement agencies.

I had a long Snakewall planned that attacked this as an intellectually lazy insinuation, but then I decided, nah, fuck it, I'm not going to even indirectly side with a law enforcement agency. Criminal Procedure Bar prep has left me irrevocably jaded. But, don't you think attributing this degree of malice to the LAPD might be a little hyperbolic?

Well as a bureaucracy they might have the decency to post notices that they are firebombing the slums at such-and-such a time if the residents would like to remove themselves from said slums before said firebombing.

The idea that they would firebomb slums if they were allowed doesn't sound farfetched to me, of course, the same could be said of multiple law enforcement agencies at various levels...

Seriously, though, the upper echelons of the LAPD is a terribly corrupt place with deep seated prejudices and hatreds and a long history of bending or breaking the rules in law enforcement. The average cop on the street committing brutality is just a symptom of a system problem within the LAPD heirarchy. The worst section of the LAPD is definitely Rampart division, though. They are the most corrupt and brutal. And, not surprisingly, that division is mentioned as part of the problem in this guy's manifesto.

The thing with Rampart division is for the few guys they have actually convicted of murder or corruption within it you can assume there are dozens more in senior positions who have never even been indicted who were or are equally culpable.

http://echopark.patch.com/articles/r...d-lapd-officer

Originally Posted by EchoPark-SilverLakePatch

As the manhunt continued for Christopher Jordan Dorner Thursday afternoon, the media and others were digesting the alleged killer's "manifesto."

Dorner became the target of a regional manhunt after he killed three and injured a fourth in two seemingly retaliatory shootings over the last few days.

Published to the Internet on Feb. 4, soon after the former LAPD officer killed two people in Irvine, the rambling document criticizes dozens of institutions and individuals--and invokes the Rampart Division corruption scandal of the late 1990s.

Dorner writes:

I know I will be villified by the LAPD and the media. Unfortunately, this is a necessary evil that I do not enjoy but must partake and complete for substantial change to occur within the LAPD and reclaim my name. The department has not changed since the Rampart and Rodney King days. It has gotten worse. The consent decree should never have been lifted. The only thing that has evolved from the consent decree is those officers involved in the Rampart scandal and Rodney King incidents have since promoted to supervisor, commanders, and command staff, and executive positions.

Dorner does not name any individuals currently affiliated with the Rampart Division, though Dorner does allude to several involved in the MacArthur Park May Day scuffle.

Much of the document points fingers at individuals from Dorner's troubled time at the LAPD's Harbor and Southwest Divisions, including the court case around his dismissal for making false statements about his LAPD training officer.

Over at the Rampart headquarters on Sixth Street in Westlake, just a single police car was stationed at the entrance early Thursday afternoon.

LAPD divisions and other possible sites of retaliation had been on alert since the early morning, when it was learned that Dorner had killed a Riverside police and injured a second person near Corona.

All the entrances to the LAPD Police Academy in Elysian Park were blocked by armed guards and had been since 6 a.m.

The LAPD Northeast Division also remained on tactical alert and, according to Capt. Joseph Hiltner there, "“Everybody’s working in a partner configuration. We have ample resources and ready back-up out there.”

In a news conference downtown Thursday morning, LAPD Chief Charlie Beck asked Dorner to turn himself in because "nobody else needs to die."

Several celebrities mentioned in Dorner's manifesto, including KFI's Bill Handel, also created similar video messages published by TMZ.com, claiming "his side of the story would be covered."

Again, he shouldn't be killing people. I wish he had thought through another way to effect change in the LAPD.

[rpgdemon]

Originally Posted by Magus

How so? I'm pretty sure saying that people with violently racist thoughts are mentally ill is not saying that all people with mental illness are bigots.

On the other hand, I'm not sure why this is even in the conversation because this guy is not racist, but he does suffer from a mental illness, in my opinion...

I would also like to know this.

As to why it's in the conversation, from what I understand, the police were being racist, which is what sparked everything. He is also mentally ill, but that isn't why this point was being made. It was a conversation that sort of semi-happened on page 1.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Magus

Well as a bureaucracy they might have the decency to post notices that they are firebombing the slums at such-and-such a time if the residents would like to remove themselves from said slums before said firebombing.

I think the difference of opinion here seems to be that you're attributing to an extremely, almost childishly inhuman malice what I'd attribute to an excessive degree of discretion offered to an authoritarian, bureaucratic agency.

The answer is almost always a lot more complicated than simply pointing your fingers at another human being and saying "They're scumbags; they'd choke babies to death if they could."

And I actually find the hyperbole a bit of a cop-out. We all enjoy feeling a bit holier-than-thou over conservatives and cops and senators and other individuals who we can demonize as netherworldly 'others' and hold beneath our contempt. How much more frightening would it be to conceive that their behaviors are human behaviors, their injustices are our injustices, and that they are in fact 'normal' people who've been blinded to their excesses by an unjust status quo?

It's like the people who demonize George W. Bush into some Antichrist who was sent by the conspiratorial nether-entities to enslave humanity under the rule of McDonalds and Nike and gleefully applaud as thousands upon thousands die. I hate George W. Bush as much as any decent progressive should, but recognizing that his crimes (and yes, he's committed them and should be imprisoned for them) were the result of human flaws and shortcomings leads to a far more productive discussion than just cursing him into oblivion.

EDIT: Don't you hate it when as you're typing a post, the post you're responding to is edited to the point where your new post seems completely disjointed and inaccurate?
...Because I hate that. New rule: No one can edit posts I'm responding to as I'm responding to them. Unless you're me, then you can edit all you want.

[Magus]

I don't think they would see it as childish. It's the same mentality when you hear people talk about how we should just firebomb or nuke other countries that bother us. Sure you can blame it on the human condition but then again you and I don't think this way. So it would be better to blame it on their own personal ignorance instead of the whole of humanity.

There are senior white officers in the LAPD who consider the Latinos and black people in that area to be subhuman and would, if they could, firebomb their houses to "clean them out". That is their mentality and their thought process and how they see the solution to the problem.

Like, I see what you mean, in many other instances it would be hyperbolic to attribute such an extreme mentality to members of an organization or the organization as a whole. But it is, sadly, probably not hyperbolic to attribute it to the LAPD, or at least large segments of it and a large portion of it's hierarchy.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Magus

There are senior white officers in the LAPD who consider the Latinos and black people in that area to be subhuman and would, if they could, firebomb their houses to "clean them out". That is their mentality and their thought process and how they see the solution to the problem.

...Do you have a citation for this?
I'm not asking to be snarky, I'm genuinely intrigued and concerned about the possibility that this is something leaked documents or conversations have actually established. Because if it's not hyperbolic, I'd have to apologize for assuming that the concept was so outlandish that it couldn't possibly be true.

[Magus]

All I can cite is historical precedent with the presumption that most of the senior hierarchy still consists of people who were senior members in the' 90s (if at slightly lower stations). We are a mere ten years removed from this time and yet everyone tries to say the LAPD has fundamentally and unequivocally changed. CRASH members would have firebombed neighborhoods if they could, that is all I can say for certain. Many of them are still in the LAPD in senior positions. So...

I did try a Google search maybe for just straight-up racist statements from senior members but all I can get now are Chris Dorner stories.

EDIT: Like if someone had made the statement "the LAPD would firebomb Latino and black neighborhoods if they could" to you in the '80s or '90s you would not even had the thought "maybe this is hyperbolic." If you had heard it in the '70s you would have assumed they were already doing it.

ANOTHER EDIT: Plus keep in mind this is all with the modifier, "if they could" which is a large presumption--obviously many people are kept in check by basic civil law and the consequences of violence. BUT that is the only thing...and they continue to commit lesser crimes of brutality daily.