The Anti-education movement

[Muffin Mage]

"God is dead" -Freidrich Nieztche

Honestly, I think that the best way to improve the education system is to raise the education standards. Standardized tests should be shot, because they do nothing but test how well you can take tests and test how well your teachers prepare you to take the test. Practical exams would be better; i.e. if you're taking Physics, you'd need to predict where a cannonball would hit, then fire it and be graded on your accuracy.

I don't think that a privatized education system would work. We'd get anti-business nuts complaining that the companies are trying to brainwash our innocent minds into armies of dooom to kill all that is good, kind and caring, such as those doing the complaining.

As for religion in schools, do you really trust a people who didn't understand the mechanics of rainfall to explain the mysteries of the universe?

[Darkblade]

Originally Posted by The Tortured one

Darkblade, pessimistic aren't we? Keeping an attitude like that is gonna give you an ulcer, son. I've noticed that people who keep a pessimistic attitude tend to die old and alone, maybe they have a cat or two, or twenty, to keep them company. Just some friendly advice.

Son? I'm not that young buddy.

I only say what i see. And hell teen suicide is as much a problem here as it is in japan. And why go to school and try to make yourself sucessfull when most parents now dont even bother to try to encourage when you do good or berate when you go wrong. Its a simple loss of motivation from the people that could do the most good.

All the scholarship programs in the world arent gonna make any kid smarter or want to learn. That part has to come from what their parents teach them.

Edit: My first comment on america came after seeing stuff about the lies we were told about iraq and stuff like that. Kinda off the wall i know but relevant still.

[Illuminatus]

Note: Please stop hating on God. He likes you.

I agree with whats been said. Education starts at home and in the hearts of the students. Until our culture starts appreciating education, the system will suck. That's why foreign kids do better than we do. They've been raised better.

[Darkblade]

Now what i would say is the biggest problem is that everyone wants a say in what is taugh. Everyone wants what they beleive taught. As a response the government tries to compensate and we lose real knowledge. Instead of trying to be accomadating to different cultures we should ignore culture and teach facts. No parent or group should be able to influence what is taught. If only because they take away the choices of the student to follow their own path.

There is no anti education movement, just a bunch of stupid people complaining and getting things changed that make it hard to teach real knowledge.

As for teaching creationism and the like then it shouldnt be in school. Its a religeous idea not a valid theory. If they put creationism in a science book then they should put in my beleife that magical elves with special powers created everything.

Its crazy. There are so many things that you could change in how we approach knowledge. Such simple things that could make so much difference.

[AntiGnostic]

Originally Posted by Darkblade

As for teaching creationism and the like then it shouldnt be in school. Its a religeous idea not a valid theory.

So you say. Evolution is merely a naturalistic means of explaining the origins of the universe. Creationism does not only rely on natural explainations, but super natural ones as well. Does that make Creationism an invalid theory?

If we're going to teach students about the origins of the universe, then we should either present all theories (naturalistic evolution, theistic evoulution / intelligent design, creationism, etc.), or no theories.

And if a child's parent's object to a student being taught a particular theory, or the way in which said theory is being taught, then excuse the child from that class. Leave it up to the parents. They are the ones who are responsible for their children's education, after all.

[Darkblade]

Yes it does. Because supernatural explanationas are not valid.

And no if you are going to teach knowledge then you should teach the most reasonable scientific theorys and not fantasy or religious conjecture. God and allah and krishna and whatever have no place in school.

As for the parents they should have no say whatsoever in what their children learn in this country. Because when they are given the ulitmate authority then they can persuade and coerce their kids to whatever they want. I hate to think that they make decsions for kids instead of letting the kids make up their own minds. Thats what i dont like about parents and religious groups having a say, they dont know and are not qualified to teach. Their opinions mean nothing. Anything they teach a child will be their own prejudeces and hatreds. They wont teach logic and truth but their own distorted views.

Religion is important to a lot of people but it means nothing if you are forced to be a certain religion whether you beleive or not by your parents. If you make the descision yourself on your own terms then yes it is sacred, but if your parents force you to beleive whether you really do our not then it is a sin and a lie.

Edit: If you are going to give knowledge then no parent should be given the right to interject. When you give in to the parent you take away a right from the child. No child should be refused knowledge because their parents beleive something. The choice should be with the child always.

[Muffin Mage]

Logic and truth? Are you saying we start them on Aristotle at an early age? Aristotle was flawed, as he used only his observations without experimenting. That is where we got the idea of spontaneous generation, and combinations of four elements.

How do we know that supernatural theories are invalid? Our current theories are based on empiricism, wherein one goes out and pokes things with sticks and writes down the reactions. Therefore, if one observes wrong, one makes a wrong theory. However, Occam's Razor, as you ought to know, says that the simplest solution is probably the most correct. There are several dozen reasons as to why creationism is illogical and, since that is the crux of the debate, we can assume that it is too complex and ignore it. That does not, however, say that evolution is the correct theory, but the most correct of those to date. It could be that the Earth sprang fully-formed from the belly-button of a giant earwhig, for all we know.

This is teetering on the edge of a religious discussion, in case you folks haven't noticed. Maybe we should try to stop?

As to education itself, I think that there should be a stress on the classics early on. There have been, after all, very few truly new ideas in the past three or four centuries. And I think that everyone should be required to learn Latin, as it is the root language for half the languages in Europe and the basis for more than half of the English vocabulary.

[shiney]

I think what needs to happen is we need to take a hard line on failing all the idiots. Schools aren't messed up. Kids are. They fail and still get to pass. Why bother to even try if you don't have to? Even if you are failed your parents will just sue.

Parents need to grow the fuck up and kick their kids' asses when they fail. Kids need to grow up and not fail. Standardized testing should be made harder, and when it is, there shouldn't be 3000 people failing them and then expecting to just be passed anyways.

As far as our generation being lazy slackers, that's also bullshit. There's a lot but no more than any generation, just they weren't spoken of as much. We have plenty of driven members of society trying to succeed. There's always gonna be joe blows who have their parents pay/sue their way through education, and there will always be lifeless bums wandering the streets. But on average the students are at least completing school. There wouldn't still be things like college courses for highschool students, or the A-honor roll.

Just a few idiots that make it seem worse than it really is.

And teaching religion in schools should never be compulsory. Freedom of religion, sorta why people came here in the first place. It would be an affront to the american people if we became christianland and had mandatory bible study hours. If they want to teach one religion they have to teach all religions.

[AnonCastillo]

Originally Posted by Papacha

There are many problems with the Public school system, I agree. Hell, I would know, since I'm still in it right now. The main problem that I see, however, is that teaching simply isn't a worthwhile job. It is thankless, and pays little. I mean, who wants to work in high schools today? Mine has 5 police officers working around the clock, and over 20 security guards, just to keep us from killing each other. Its madness! I've had a few teachers who were really outstanding, and who obviously loved their job. However, I've had many more bad teachers than good. I remember learning more from other students and my text book what my teacher was under qualified to teaching. It�s a shame, it turns off so many kids from learning.

Privatizing schools would help with this. A private school would generally pay teachers more, making the job more rewarding in at least one way. At the same time, teachers would have to actually earn their money - no school set up to make a profit is going to put up with a teacher who does a lousy job, because parents won't pay for that school unless their kids are getting a good education. With public schools, parents have to send their kids to school whether or not the school is doing a good job.

Originally Posted by Papacha

I also feel that it is pointless to make schooling mandatory. I would say about half of my school is failing at least 1 class, and would leave in a heartbeat. It just isn't productive to be schooling people who don't want to be there. In order to learn, you have to actually try, or care. You can't just learn through osmosis...it simply doesn't work. If we got rid of the students who, not only are bound to fail, but are already failing, it would leave more funding for the promising students. Not everyone can grow up to be doctors and lawyers, and this is America. We have the right to determine our own future.

Good idea, and another point in favor of private schools. With public schooling, you can make attendance mandatory, meaning good students have to share classes with disruptive kids who don't want to learn. This means nobody learns. With private schooling, schools can refuse to take disruptive students. Because parents know that their kids will only be able to stay in school if they behave, parents will also become more involved in making sure their kids are behaving. This way good students get a chance to learn without disruption.

Originally Posted by Papacha

I disagree with you on the issue of PE, though. Well, more specifically, on sports. I'm of the opinion that extra-curricular sports, like Football, Basketball, etc., have no real place in a school setting. If even a fraction of the cost that went into equipment and maintaining the fields, went into our computer department, we would be able to have some decent programs to work with, maybe even decent computers. Sorry, but QBasic isn't a language worth learning. Not only that, but most of our sports players are failing. Our football teams average GPA is 1.2...thats a tad bit better than a D average. Playing sports in High School has no bearing on your future, unless you get extremely lucky and become a professional. But what are the odds of that?

Another beauty of private schools is that you pick a school that has the things you want, without wasting money on the things you don't. Want a school that focuses more on computers than on PE? Send your kids there/ask your parents to enroll you there. Want a school that's more sports-oriented? Send your kids there/ask your parents to enroll you there.

Originally Posted by Papacha

Now, this is exactly why I hate organized religion. Religion, IMO, relies on ignorance. I mean, it�s faith-based, therefore logic has no place in it. Super-Christians, generally, become very uncomfortable when asked to explain anything in the Bible. Just how would one go about telling us how we all descended from two perfect beings (that in itself is impossible, or we would be perfect ourselves. Which we aren't, as is evident by the fact that we die), or that the world was created in 7 days? You can't. I can just envision America, full of red-neck hicks run through the Bible Belt. Thats what will happen eventually if we stop educating ourselves. Not a very bright future, is it?

Disorganized religion = teh win! Hail Eris! All hail Discordia!
What's that? No religious discussion? Okay, okay....

Originally Posted by JADGuy

Vouchers are a shit idea and I'll explain why.

The Public schools are already underfunded. So taking money away from them to cyphon it to private schools will only worsen the situation in public schools. If parents want their kids to go to private schools there are scholarships.

There's a flaw in your logic. Private schools cost about 1/2 to 2/3 as much as public schools. So, say your school district spends an average of $6000/year per student, and a voucher system was started that paid $4000/year per student. For every student that switched from public to private school, there'd be an extra $2000/year for the students who stayed in public school, plus the public school would be less crowded and you'd be sending a kid to a more successful private school.

Originally Posted by Darkblade

Son? I'm not that young buddy.

You realize that, right below your name, it says "LVL 12 Son Of Darkness", right? Just checking.

[Darkblade]

The title is a tribute to the old ezboard channel.