U.S. Middle Middle east relations 1949-98

[Royalspork]

My opinion is that they hate us because we grouped them wrong. When the brittish and french grabbed parts of the african coast and middle east, they grouped it without any consideration of the ethnic devisions of the middle east.

also, saying that isrial is jewish property is like selling a house and then having your son claim it to be his. SHOULDN'T WORK THAT WAY

[icythaco]

also, saying that isrial is jewish property is like selling a house and then having your son claim it to be his. SHOULDN'T WORK THAT WAY

Might be true, but, if so, do you think it is the Arab's property instead? I'm not claiming it to be Jewish property, just like I'm not claiming America to be The church's property. I think it's the property of whoever lives there, and if the majority of its people are Jewish, the Muslims who are angry about this are just going to have to deal with it.

[Royalspork]

Originally Posted by icythaco

Might be true, but, if so, do you think it is the Arab's property instead? I'm not claiming it to be Jewish property, just like I'm not claiming America to be The church's property. I think it's the property of whoever lives there, and if the majority of its people are Jewish, the Muslims who are angry about this are just going to have to deal with it.

You act as if you need one group to be "in the right", no one is in the right, also works both ways, no one is in the wrong either.

Was the crusifiction of countless jews right? in our standard, no. But our standard isn't the only one
Was the countless land grabs by english right? In our standards, no. But we were produced by it
Was our land grabs in the middle east right? apperintly, yes. But how is it that different from what brittan did?

-----I want to get off of my arguement for a second.
how ever wrong land grabs may look, they have shaped the world as we know it

greak and roman rule caused the rule of europe to always be in the west.
brittish conquest cause: US, problems in Africa and middle east, communism in china and countless other problems/feats.
russian conquest created the little contries around it

so don't worry Iraq, some day the US will fall and you will be a world power

[icythaco]

Originally Posted by Royalspork

You act as if you need one group to be "in the right", no one is in the right, also works both ways, no one is in the wrong either.

Was the crusifiction of countless jews right? in our standard, no. But our standard isn't the only one
Was the countless land grabs by english right? In our standards, no. But we were produced by it
Was our land grabs in the middle east right? apperintly, yes. But how is it that different from what brittan did?

All this may be true, but what I'M saying is that the land belongs to whoever lives there. It doesn't belong to the Jews: it just happens that the majority of the population is Jewish. But neither does it belong to the Muslims, for the reason that a country doesn't belong to a group or a religion: It is its own orginization, its own entity apart from whatever classification its inhabitants are grouped as. Just because a majority of Americans are Christians doesn't mean we are a Christian country. This is an idea the rest of the world seems vastly ignorant of.

However, I think we both agree that land-grabs are what has shaped our current political map of the world.

[Royalspork]

Originally Posted by icythaco

All this may be true, but what I'M saying is that the land belongs to whoever lives there. It doesn't belong to the Jews: it just happens that the majority of the population is Jewish. But neither does it belong to the Muslims, for the reason that a country doesn't belong to a group or a religion: It is its own orginization, its own entity apart from whatever classification its inhabitants are grouped as. Just because a majority of Americans are Christians doesn't mean we are a Christian country. This is an idea the rest of the world seems vastly ignorant of.

However, I think we both agree that land-grabs are what has shaped our current political map of the world.

just a question before I argue some more, what was the population ratio in isreal before zoinist movement (it is called zionist right? Darn Matrix for messing with my brain) If you don't know what I am trying to say, then what was the ratio before 1949?

[Archbio]

[A] country doesn't belong to a group or a religion: It is its own orginization, i its own entity apart from whatever classification its inhabitants are grouped as. Just because a majority of Americans are Christians doesn't mean we are a Christian country. This is an idea the rest of the world seems vastly ignorant of.

I know this is entierely off topic, but quite a few North Americans (maybe excepting Mexico), or at least a small number of very vocal people, also don't understand that concept. It's not that old a concept, either.

[icythaco]

Damn, I can't find it for before the zionist movement. I can only find the current percentage: Israel is 80.1% Jewish. I'll try looking a little harder...

Edit: Damn, the official Israeli beaureau of statistic's archive only goes back to 1996...

Edit2: Yeah, I agree with you on that ArchBIo...

[Royalspork]

maybe you should look at the zionist movement itself.
We all agree on that, but it is offtopic.Rwrrr

I think the key part is what was the pop before the zionist movement

[icythaco]

Yeah, I still can't find it...

Anyway, I get what your striving at: You're trying to prove that there were more Arabs than Jews in Israel before the zionist movement, right?

If so, it supports your whole theory about Israel being a land grab, and how, by my own definition, it should really belong to the Arabs because they were the original one's "living there". I could go back to the diaspora, and how the Jews still originally lived there, but that's too far back in history. I admit that during the middle-ages, and up until the beggining of the zionist movement, there were probably more Arabs than Jews living in Israel.

But I still hold that a country is defined by who lives there, not by what organization its inhabitants are part of. No matter how they got there, the Jews still live in Israel, and just because they immigrated there does not give the Middle-East the right to look at them as invaders and land-stealers. You didn't stop them when they first started immigrating into your land, and by the time you tried to do anything about it, it was too late. If the middle-east had just tried to co-exist with the Jews, then the U.N. wouldn't have been forced to make a state of Israel, and they wouldn't have lost that chunk of land.

[Robot Jesus]

Actually that’s a pretty common misconception about the creation of Israel. Initially the Arabs didn’t have a problem with the Jews emigrating, they where buying the land fairly and there where few of them, but as the numbers increased opposition grew. Then outside force stepped in (I cant remember if it was the early UN or just an international coalition), created the nation of Israel and strong armed the Arabs into selling there land.

This demonstrates why the Arab world sees Israel as a nation of invaders, but it also demonstrates why it isn’t there fault, it’s ours. Beyond being the ones who forced the deal on the Arabs, one of the primary motivations for the creation of Israel I that the “civilized world” wasn’t willing to accepts so many refugees.