The Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[Elminster_Amaur]

I recognize Bob's story from somewhere. I believe that it is a much less accurate version than the first one I read, in which the second student didn't make as many of those statements. In fact, after his "absence of" arguements that darkness and cold didn't exist, he only pointed out the professor's error, and stated that evil was the absence of God. The version of the story that I read stated that the second student was Albert Einstein. Of course, I don't believe that. Just wanted to point out that someone has said that that was him, and since then the story has gotten bigger and less science oriented.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by Elminster_Amaur

The version of the story that I read stated that the second student was Albert Einstein. Of course, I don't believe that.

Nor should you, though it would be amusing to have Christianity attempt to make its case by quoting a Jew. Well, you know, aside from all those quotes from Jesus.

[Bailey]

Well, considering that the argument was about whether or not there can be a God, and Christianity was an offshoot of Judaism, and therefor has a lot of things still in common, one of which being the existence of a God, it's not so odd to think of a Jew defending Christianity in that context, so long as you consider that what they're actually defending is one of the basic concepts held by all people of the book.

[I_Like_Swordchucks]

Speaking of Christianity being defended by a Jewish person, here's another article that I read off of a website. I won't say who wrote it, because I'm not sure if it was all written by the same guy. I do know who wrote most of it though, and he's definitely Jewish.

--------------

Herewith a few confessions from my beating heart:

I have no freaking clue who Nick and Jessica are. I see them on the cover of People and Us constantly when I am buying my dog biscuits and kitty litter. I often ask the checkers at the grocery stores. They never know who Nick and Jessica are either. Who are they? Will it change my life if I know who they are and why they have broken up? Why are they so important?

I don't know who Lindsay Lohan is either, and I do not care at all about Tom Cruise's wife.

Am I going to be called before a Senate committee and asked if I am a subversive? Maybe, but I just have no clue who Nick and Jessica are.

If this is what it means to be no longer young. It's not so bad.

Next confession: I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are: Christmas trees.

It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, "Merry Christmas" to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu. If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution, and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship Nick and Jessica and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him?

I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too.

But there are a lot of us who are wondering where Nick and Jessica came from and where the America we knew went to.

In light of the many jokes we say to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like e this Happen?" (regarding Katrina)

Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response.

She said, "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"

In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.

Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school . the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbour as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's becoming a hell.

Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing?

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Please note, this is not intended to prove God exists. It's merely a statement by a man who think that religion shouldn't be taking all the heat.

[42PETUNIAS]

Originally Posted by Tool

How then can be Christianity, or any religion for that matter be THE one truth. Just because there is a supposed book that says so?

Maybe all religions are basically right, and God sends down prophets with different messages to teach what mankind needs at that specific time. Maybe Judiasm, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism are all started by the same god, one who deals with the evolving state of mankind by sending down prophets to teach what humans need to learn at that time. (WOOO Bahai faith for the win!)

[Dragonsbane]

Originally Posted by Darth SS

Amendment to his statement.


Demetrius and others have made those statements multiple times, and us on the science side are pretty sure we've debunked a bunch of their statements.

It's really a war of attrition at this point.

Actually, I haven't seen the existence of a creator-deity disproved or debunked yet, merely parts of the doctrine and ancient Hebrew creation-myths.

Now, a few points I've noticed thus far in the thread.

First, apathy can be considered evil. Loathe as I am to quote religious text, is not Sloth one of the Seven Deadly Sins?

Second, unless I remember wrong, we evolved from a common ancestor that we share with apes, rather than evolving from apes themselves.

Third, regarding someone's (no names for fairness) argument regarding a hypothetical being's existence outside of time. Look at it this way, you are riding on a roller coaster. In this example, the roller coaster is time. Someone standing off to the side of it is viewing it in the same manner that this hypothetical, omniscient being views time.

[MasterOfMagic]

I have a question concerning the whole "free will" thing. Its pointed specifically to christianity, as that's the religion I'm struggling with at this point in time.

Assuming god wants us to have it, why would he make the consequences so dire? I mean, an eternity in heaven for believing in him...okay, that's fine. God's rewarding people for believing in him/worshipping him/whatever. But then...an eternity in hell? Burning forever? What?

If he loves us so much, why wouldn't he pick something less horrible? Come back to Earth and try agian? Send us to some place where it might not be a barrel of laughs the whole time, but at least we aren't frying 'till the end of time?

And why only two ends? Surely the person who lives their life for other people making only a few mistakes on the way (not believing in god being one of them), and a serial killer don't have to end up in the same place?

I've read through the whole thread (took me three days @.@), and while I've seen this issue appear, there's never really been an answer given that I've seen. Of course, its extremely possible I've missed it. I mean...damn.

[Archbio]

Dragonsbane,

Actually, I haven't seen the existence of a creator-deity disproved or debunked yet, merely parts of the doctrine and ancient Hebrew creation-myths.

Darth SS seemed to have been referring to statements having to do with those points of doctrine, and hasn't claimed any such thing.

I'm sure others in the thread have pointed out just irrelevant the lack of proof for the inexistence of any creator-deity really is.

First, apathy can be considered evil. Loathe as I am to quote religious text, is not Sloth one of the Seven Deadly Sins?

That's not a demonstration at all. It sounds just like an appeal to authority, which is why I think you're right to loath quoting it. Plus, apathy and indifference don't necessarily translate into sloth, whatever is their status concerning good and evil (I'd lean toward them just being the absence of good, myself).

MasterofMagic,

I've read through the whole thread (took me three days @.@), and while I've seen this issue appear, there's never really been an answer given that I've seen.

As far as I can tell, there hasn't been an answer. Hell's radical nature and its ackwardness in relation to the characterization and justification of god's character and objectives, as described in the thread, has been brought up several times, but that's been mostly ignored.

Just like there was several gods that could be characterized in different ways. Edit: Errr, sure, there are several interpretations presented in this thread, by several people. It's just that some of these interpretations aren't that big on internal logic, depending on what is being explained.

I_Like_Swordchucks,

It's merely a statement by a man who think that religion shouldn't be taking all the heat.

It seems to me to demonstrate anything but that. Reading it, I had rather the impression of the hegemonic thinking of some varieties of christians being very pervasive in the US public discourse. This hegemony is often expressed, as demonstrated by this article, in representing facts in a way that implies oppression of christians, which is patently ridiculous (in the context and examples given, that is).

The article is a series of warped references to media-bound controversies, most of them manufactured: the only thing it seems to add is the notion that it was written by someone jewish, which is dubious (considering just how pointededly evangelical/theocratic in an american way the whole thing is couched), but wouldn't be all that surprising. Nevertheless, it signifies nothing.

[I_Like_Swordchucks]

Originally Posted by MasterOfMagic

I have a question concerning the whole "free will" thing. Its pointed specifically to christianity, as that's the religion I'm struggling with at this point in time.

Assuming god wants us to have it, why would he make the consequences so dire? I mean, an eternity in heaven for believing in him...okay, that's fine. God's rewarding people for believing in him/worshipping him/whatever. But then...an eternity in hell? Burning forever? What?

If he loves us so much, why wouldn't he pick something less horrible? Come back to Earth and try agian? Send us to some place where it might not be a barrel of laughs the whole time, but at least we aren't frying 'till the end of time?

And why only two ends? Surely the person who lives their life for other people making only a few mistakes on the way (not believing in god being one of them), and a serial killer don't have to end up in the same place?

I've read through the whole thread (took me three days @.@), and while I've seen this issue appear, there's never really been an answer given that I've seen. Of course, its extremely possible I've missed it. I mean...damn.

I honestly don't have a clear answer for you there. What I personally think, now this can be very wrong as it my own personal view and is quite possible different than most Christians, is that there are different levels of hell.

It is a common misconception that people who go to heaven all get the same eternal bliss. Thats not true. If one reads into the Bible very carefully, your reward in heaven is directly proportional to how much good you do on earth. A person can be a murder, then repent at the last minute and go to heaven, but he's not going to be in as good of a position as someone who has loved God and done good for others all their life.

And while I have no backing for this, I could assume that hell would work the same way. Your punishment in hell could very well be proportional to how much bad you do on earth (or how little good). In that scenario a serial killer and a person who simply didn't accept Jesus would not endure the same punishment.

To be honest, I don't find the Bible all that clear in its description of heaven and hell. All it says is that Jesus is the only way you get to heaven. It says that in hell there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth. And I suppose there would be if you missed out on heaven... muchos regrettos.

I also think its difficult to characterize everything the way we do as humans. If God is good, for example, evil must have always also existed because in order for there to be good, there must be evil. The bible plainly states that people are evil, because there's not one of us who do nothing wrong. Even if you look at just the Ten Commandments, we're still all screwed, and it says no sin will enter into heaven. Thats where Jesus comes in... he atoned for all the bad things we did, so we get a free passcard to heaven inspite of being sinners. However, if you don't accept that he did that, then you're essentially saying "my sin is mine, and I still have it". Therefore, you cannot get in. Its not that God sends you to hell, its that you hold onto something that doesn't let you into heaven.

Christians still sin. But the bible says there is no condemnation in those that have accepted Jesus' sacrifice for them. We don't try to be 'good' people to get into heaven. We try to be good people to thank Jesus for letting us in and because its the right thing to do. But even those who make it to heaven still have their deeds on Earth put through the test... so to quote the Gladiator: "What we do in life echoes in eternity". The reward is not the same for everybody, so neither (I think) is the punishment.

[42PETUNIAS]

Originally Posted by I Like Swordchucks

It is a common misconception that people who go to heaven all get the same eternal bliss. Thats not true. If one reads into the Bible very carefully, your reward in heaven is directly proportional to how much good you do on earth. A person can be a murder, then repent at the last minute and go to heaven, but he's not going to be in as good of a position as someone who has loved God and done good for others all their life.

Care to give an example or quote from the bible? I don't know about anybody else, but I've never heard about this as a christian thing, so some evidence in the bible would make it a little more believable for me. Also, that seems like the same logic that leads to islamic suicide bombers killing themselves to get much better treatment in heaven. (I think someone mentioned something about them getting 70-something virgins/peas when they went to heaven)