01-11-2007, 03:52 PM | #301 | ||
An Animal I Have Become
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First of all there's the parables the tenants. Each tenant has a different award given to them. Also Jesus did the one who puts himself last shall be first, and he who puts himself first shall be last. That would imply that not everybody in heaven is given the same rank, so to speak. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. —1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. —2 Corinthians 5:10 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” —Matthew 12:36-37 These verses are the biggies for this. "If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." I think it seems pretty clear that the serial killer who comes to Christ at the last moment gets to heaven, but by the skin of his teeth so to speak.. "each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil." Also implies that your reward/punishment is relative to the good or evil you do on Earth. Many Christians ignore verses like this and think that salvation is the start all and end all. Things put forward in the New Testament, which very few verses actually refer to the afterlife, beg to differ. I'm not surprised you've never heard of it.
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:fighter: "Buds 4-eva!!!" :bmage: "No hugs for you." Quote:
Last edited by I_Like_Swordchucks; 01-11-2007 at 03:56 PM. |
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01-11-2007, 05:56 PM | #302 | ||||||
Worth every yenny
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: not my mind that's for sure!
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God doesn't do things to "see what would happen." God already knows, basically by definition. There's no way God could make an intelligent species while thinking, "I wonder if they'll honor me." It already knows the answer damn well. The only way that could work is if the great one literally rolled the dice to determine what this world would be like and then created it without ever actually observing the result of the dice roll. Quote:
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Not that I personally care whether the afterlife is further tiered. Just saying that your citations aren't very convincing. Quote:
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01-11-2007, 06:43 PM | #303 | |
helloooo!
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noooo! why are you doing that?! |
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01-11-2007, 07:13 PM | #304 | |||
An Animal I Have Become
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Really, I don't know any more than anybody else when it comes to what happens after you die. But I do know that most typical conceptions of heaven and hell are completely societal based and have very little scriptural backing. I take what I read in the Bible, and I take what makes sense to me based on that... and the standard ideas of heaven and hell don't make sense based on the Bible itself. Quote:
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:fighter: "Buds 4-eva!!!" :bmage: "No hugs for you." Quote:
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01-11-2007, 07:23 PM | #305 | |
Bob Dole
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We all have a conscience and a sense of what is right and wrong written on our hearts from when we are born. What this verse means is that people who have never heard the rules set down in the bible won't be judged by them. But, people who have heard it will be. Or as Rich Deem puts it: "Paul also tells us that those who follow the law (e.g., practicing Jews) will be judged by the law. The people who have never heard of the law are judged by the law of God which He has placed into their hearts."
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Bob Dole |
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01-11-2007, 08:30 PM | #307 | ||
An Animal I Have Become
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:fighter: "Buds 4-eva!!!" :bmage: "No hugs for you." Quote:
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01-11-2007, 08:59 PM | #308 | |
Sent to the cornfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: L.A. Sprawl
Posts: 589
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I've heard this thread referred to as a "war of attrition." That distresses me, because it presents an attitude that is quite contrary to any kind of decent spirit of debate. We atheists should not be concerned with winning any kind of "war." We should be concerned with being right, knowing the truth -- at least as much as we can, as human beings. I will not defend any portion of my beliefs if they are clearly pointed out as false. I've admitted my wrongness at least once so far, when Swordchucks pointed out a logical fallacy in a post of mine. I did not try to defend it -- I was wrong. I've also modified other views, in cases where I was not so much wrong as imprecise. And once, although I never addressed my wrongness explicitly (for the debate had moved far on by the time I returned), I was wrong, regarding physics barring the existence of God. I was informed otherwise. Let me openly admit now, that I was intellectually pwned. I admitted to myself when it happened anyway -- why should I not want to admit it here? In essence, what have I done in being proven wrong? I've moved closer to truth. I've expelld from my belief system an irrational and illogical and downright wrong facet. This is my aim, always, in all things. Especially in debate. I am glad that there are people here, in this forum, with the intelligence and clarity to hone my thoughts. And I hope I may do the same for them. Of course, go and argue your views, and do so with force and vigor. But do not view this as some war to win. View it is a communal effort staged by humans to help us all move toward the truth. I think the Christians here have done a far better job of this than the atheists. After all, what is proselytizing, if not an effort to bring others to the truth? That is a good and decent purpose, and I endorse it. I think that purpose is expressed poorly, and so I declare. But I am not the theists' enemy, nor even their opponent. I am their fellow human being, another consciousness attempting to approach truth, hoping to help us all approach truth. If this is not the purpose of debate, then what is? I have no axe to grind, no personal grudge that prevents me from admitting when I'm wrong. I've certainly got motivation to do so -- I've suffered the slings and arrows of the religious Right's attacks on homosexuality. I've had people tell me "I hate the way you talk, the way you walk, what you wear, how you act. I hate you. I hate everything about you people." But you know what? It does me no good to bear a grudge against the worldview that spawned such bile. To do so would only hamper my own improvement and growth as a human being. Why would I let those who wish to harm me succeed by stifling my consciousness? I think religion is a bad idea, and I think it is not the closet approximation to truth that exists today. I think it has negative effects on the world, and on all the individuals who practice it. I wish to aid others in seeing this, though if someone proved me wrong, I would take their demolition of my belief system as an act of love and kindness, and thank them for it. This is why people hate atheists -- while the religious are out to "spread the Good News," the atheists are out to destroy your faith. It is perceived as an assualt. It is not. It should not be, anyway. It should be just one more group striving to show the world truth. And to the Christians -- I hope you feel the same way. Yes, you have made a leap of faith, and you are thus fairly certain of your views. But I would hope that you consider it possible, at least, for somone to make that leap so tremendous, that you would no longer be able to make it. Even if you do not know how they would accomplish such a thing, I hope you believe it, in essence, to be possible. I don't think this would run counter to your faith. Believing in God is believing in God. Having in your mind the possibility of losing your faith -- that is not the same thing as not believing in God. I am certainly capable of losing my atheism; I try to keep a healthy dose of doubt in my mind about such large matters. But that little bit of doubt of my beliefs, that possibilty of faith within me doesn't make me a theist. I am an atheist. I firmly believe that there is no God. But I am not certain. I am open yet, to the other side of the argument, and always will be, presumably. So to hold in your minds the possibility of atheism would not make you an atheist. You would still believe in god, you would still be a Christian (or whatever else). But you would be open-minded. And so doubt and religion can exist in harmony. You can believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins, and accept him as your savior, and yet have a little doubt, somewhere, way in the back. A little possibility, a little openness. Having the possibility of change does not make you changed. Does not change what you now are. So, to all of us -- I hope we can view this not as a war of ideas, but as of a honing of wisdom. As martial artists spar and soldiers train, so too should humans debate, so that when the true enemy arises, we are all ready to face it. Now, regarding specific posts: Quote:
I still don't buy it, for plenty of reasons, but we've got a whole thread to discuss that. Last edited by Tydeus; 01-11-2007 at 09:04 PM. |
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01-11-2007, 09:13 PM | #309 | |
Worth every yenny
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: not my mind that's for sure!
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Clearly your analogy doesn't work for my purposes, but I think you see what I'm trying to say. |
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01-11-2007, 09:38 PM | #310 |
Bob Dole
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There's too much I want to say, and again, I despise sending people to websites because I'm too dumb to come up with an argument on my own, but check this one out if you're going to look through any at all. It tries to answer every question we've talked about here and the man who writes it seems very knowledgeable on the subject.
And if you find logical fallacies, bring them up. I want you to show them to me if I'm reading something misleading. I'm also only human and, like Tydeus said, my opinion can change pretty quickly.
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