PhoenixFlame Presents: Eclipse Phase

[Geminex]

Oh, I'm not saying that a sniper isn't useful. I'm saying that OC would be more useful as something other than sniper. See, amongst combat classes, I think there are two roles: Support and Assault.

Support are meant to stay out of harm's way, avoid taking damage, while disrupting the enemy's operations. They don't deal a lot of damge, usually, but what damage they do deal is very effective. An example of that would be Spectre. Spectre's a very heavy supporter. His infiltration allows him to move through combat unseen, attack the enemy from unexpected angles, gather intel, or eliminate the enemy's support units. Like I said, his infiltration skill is central to that, but so is his sniper rifle use, since attacking from long range will make him even harder to detect and avoid. Support units are the Chi.

Assault, they're not supposed to stay out of harm's way. They engage the enemy openly, they take the most fire and return the most fire, they assault and take enemy positions. NotSure (I vote that you make his in-game name NS and he refuses to tell what it stands for) is assault. He's capable of taking a significant amount of damage, and also dealing a lot of damge, at various ranges. Assault units are the Cheng.

"Engage with the Cheng, succeed with the Chi". That's Sun Tzu, for you, though quoted sloppily.

Anyway, like there you are. Support and Assault. And I think OC would be far better-suited to an assault role.

Mind you, I can't tell any of you what to do (I'm not your real dad, after all). If OC wants to go support, fair enough. The reason I got pissed off was that his justification wasn't: "I think I'd be more useful as a sniper", because I'd have been totally fine with that. His character, his choice.

But his argument was "I'm less likely to die as a sniper". He's specifically saying that his primary motivation for getting high survivability and going sniper (a definite support role) was the fact that he'd be less likely to die this way. And that annoyed me, because I set up my character for maximum effectivenes, and self-preservation was quite low on my list.

Edit: But I'm fine with OC's response. He says it's in-character for him to do that, ok. I'll continue my argumentation IC as well, though my low SAV is gonna make that difficult.

Edit2: And apologies for quoting Sun Tzu up there, I don't want to seem pretentious. But goddammit, never, ever imply that I don't see the big picture, or I will bury you in strategy until your brain disintegrates in the most allocatively efficient way possible, and game theory starts dripping from your ears.

[krogothwolf]

Support engages in combat as well you know Gem, they face dangers just like everyone else. The people we will engage will be able to match or exced what we can bring to bare. I know thinking of Super tough sniper doesn't seem normal you have to remember you not only have to build to survive in a team but also alone.

You have heard of heavy armoured crossbow men used around before right? They are heavily armoured to protect themselves even though they aren't really going to be fighting enemies up close and personal. They are so for max survivability in combat. Just because something doesn't jive with how you think it should be doesn't mean it's not how it should be. His build makes perfect sense for his character and his ambitions. It also does make sense tactically.

Also, I've seen enough rangers fall in DnD because they can't take punishment that I enjoy the idea of his long ranged pounder that can take the heat it can dish out.

[Geminex]

You have heard of heavy armoured crossbow men used around before right? They are heavily armoured to protect themselves even though they aren't really going to be fighting enemies up close and personal. They are so for max survivability in combat. Just because something doesn't jive with how you think it should be doesn't mean it's not how it should be. His build makes perfect sense for his character and his ambitions. It also does make sense tactically.

They are heavily armored because they expect to take a lot of damage. It makes sense, since enemies are going to be returning fire against them, they might even charge them. And besides, that's a strategic example. When you're talking whole armies, you need to readjust your thinking.

But see, snipers don't usually expect to take damage. Their long range means they can take positions that are difficult to assault, they can easily stay out of the enemy's range. They aren't in much danger, even with 10 nega-moxie. They need some protection, sure, but OC's character is made entirely to survive large amounts of damage. He specializes on survivability. So no, choosing sniper does not make sense tactically. That's the entire reason it doesn't "jive" with how I think it should be.

And support engages in a different kind of combat. The entire point of Chi is that they fight when it suits them. If they engage in combat, they will usually have a tactical advantage (that is to say, they're likely to win their engagement) and always a strategic advantage (even if they don't win, their engaging will help the entire army succeed).

Spectre will still fight, sure. But if everything goes well, the extent of his combat will be "Shoot someone in the back at point-blank range and run away before his comrades find out he's dead" or "Lie on a hilltop, under a camo-cloak half a mile away and snipe the enemy's medics". If I do it wrong he'll be in a situation where enemy assault units have a chance to hit him, where I've lost the initiative and come under unexpected attack. And that's when I'm in serious trouble. Whereas assault units, they'd be in trouble as well. But that's the kind of troube they're made to be in.

But like I said, before (in my edit), if this is a character-related thing, fine. I don't want to let tactics get in the way of good role-playing, I don't want to interfere in the way he designs his character. I'll just have Spectre bring it up at the earliest possible opportunity, in the RP, and we can continue our discussion then, IC.

[Dracorion]

Say Gem, where does Ellan rank? Support or Assault?

Answer seriously, please. Don't you go getting cheeky.

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Geminex

"Lie on a hilltop, under a camo-cloak half a mile away and snipe the enemy's medics".

Someone didn't read the fluff section on habitats.

Edit: This is going to primarily be urban combat. There's not going to be any half-miles. It's going to be closed areas, for the most part. EVERYONE who plans on fighting should have decent armor and survivability. Hell, the first thing Lind is going to do when he gets conscripted by Nyx is try to get himself some decent armor, and I don't even plan on shooting at anyone/being shot at ever if I can help it.

None of us are safe from being shot at and it's completely silly/ridiculous to say that just because someone's a sniper or an infiltration person they shouldn't have decent armor. The armor incurs no penalties to sniping or sneaking, the only reason you wouldn't take said armor is because you can't afford it along with everything else you want with your character and are willing to take the risk until you can.|

Pro-Tip, read Lack. The story in the beginning. Note what happens to those characters that don't have armor. Even the ones that would normally not be in combat. Spoiler: Their heads get ripped off.

Edit 2: Well it won't be urban combat if we go to earth, but if we go to earth we're all dead anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

[Dracorion]

But armor will completely ruin Ellen's dress! That's... actually pretty much why she's not wearing any.

Maybe I'll get her an Invisibility Cloak or something.

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Dracorion

But armor will completely ruin Ellen's dress! That's... actually pretty much why she's not wearing any.

Maybe I'll get her an Invisibility Cloak or something.

Smart skin. Takes one action turn to deploy, and will basically double the armor values of your smart vac suit. Pretty much unnoticeable until deployed, too.

[Geminex]

She's not much of a combat class, is she?. The entire Support/Assault scheme only works for combat classes. If she does have to enter combat, her primary goal should be to leave combat again, before she gets hurt. I'd classify her as support, if combat's inavoidable, since she could probably disrupt the enemy's command structure, using disguise and impersonate. But she's more of a utility class.

Yeah. I'd divide classes into Utility/Combat, and divide Combat into Assault/Support. Every character has a bit of both, utility and combat, though the weighting varies.

I intended for Spectre's focus to be primarily ,combat, though now I come to think of it, he's fairly utilitarian as well, since infiltration and demolitions have a lot of uses out-of combat as well.

Ellen? She's highly utilitarian. If we need a high-level personality to see things our way, she's the one who'll be responsible for persuading them.

OC? Very combat-heavy, in a support role, though I maintain that he isn't efficient in said role. Though his piloting skills might also be useful.

Oh, and I have a question regarding capsule ammo:
Its price is that of 1 dose of payload, plus trivial for the bullet. But does that give us 100 bullets' worth of ammo?
Because it seems strange that one dose, spread across 100 bullets, would still have the full effect. What's up with that?

[Dracorion]

Actually, Ellen doesn't use Disguise or Impersonate. Can you imagine why?

What if I give Ellen some proper armor and give that Chameleon Coating? Actually, nah.

[Overcast]

Oh yeah forgot to add in the edit to Daniel after the situations that were pointed out. Pulled a pair of specialties(Verbal Intimidation and Running) switched the +10 bonus to any skill for the Brinker from Intimidate to Kinetics, pulled 10 points(20 CP) from Kinetics, then reapplied to Freerun and Intimidate(for removing their specialties, poor fellows) and my Networking skills.

That should even out the thirty I needed. Got myself confused along with Krylo that I needed to spend 400 CP, but I needed 400 skill points.