Gettin' All Emo Up In Here!

[Nique]

Kind of trying to steer this away from technical definitions of 'Love' and relationships, but yes.

[Demetrius]

So who subscribes to love being a choice you make and who is in the camp of you can't help it when you fall in love?

[musicalmechanic]

It's a subconscious choice that is highly dependent on several variables including your willingness to try (probably the biggest variable), environmental details, and the other person's willingness to try.

The reason I say that your willingness to try is the largest factor is because some people will fall in love with someone else regardless of how the other person feels.

I should also mention that I support Krylo in his assumptions that we're hard-coded to have multiple partners, and it's society that places the burden of only having one partner on us.

I love my wife dearly, and would never cheat on her. But to say I haven't thought about it is a lie. I don't feel guilty about this little fact because it's my dedication to her and her dedication in return that makes our relationship so strong.

That, and the kinky times with Meow Meow

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Nique

I kind of take issue with this sort of blanket statment. I can just as easily say that the moral degradation of society is what has cuased spouses to cheat on each other, can't I?

You can say whatever you want, but history, science, research, current trends in crime, and every other resource other than the bible belt (who have been saying that since the dawn of time) disagrees with you.

Violent crime? Down.

Theft? Down.

And sexuality? Right now it's up. That is true. However that's only when compared to a relatively small section of time. Let's take medieval Europe as an example. This was a world ruled by the 'CHURCH', and yet multiple paramours (that's 'I don't want my wife to know what the fuck I'm talking about' for 'mistress' or 'chick I bang on the side') were had by nearly every knight. Or at least that's what every writing from the time points to, despite the efforts of the Church of the era to hide such misdeeds... and the immorality of this is arguable to the extreme. I actually find it offensive that sexuality IS seen as evil and immoral, but I'll argue the point from your point of view, wrong though it may be.

So, yes, you can SAY whatever you want. Making a reasonable arguement out of it is far more difficult.

Or, that the only thing actually hardcoded into our genes is the desire/need for sex. I don't know how you'd prove something further than that, considering how many attempts at monogamous relationships there are, even if they aren't always successful... and how painful it can be to the partner who has been cheated on? How is that biologically beneficial?

The pain isn't biologically beneficial, and, indeed, only exists due to societal constructs which were originally created for good reasons, as Demetrius pointed out--To protect human children.

HOWEVER, they are far from the only way to raise a child. Take a few of the native tribes of Africa as an example. Here polygamy is the norm, and, further, children are not raised by their parents. Instead children are raised by the village as a whole. Many do not even know who their birth parents were.

Or we could take the Mormons, where, again, polygamy was the average, and children were raised not by a single father and mother, but by a father with many mothers--a situation that, if not for various biological factors (men not being susceptible to gestation periods, and the use of greater muscle mass to 'enslave' women near the concept of society, being chief amongst these) could have gone the other way.

Or how about Rome, Greece, and Mesopotamia in general? Polygamy wasn't exactly par for the course, however sleeping around was. The children were merely raised by the mother and her family regardless of who the father happened to be, and yet you read very few tales from these time periods speaking of broken hearts due to someone cheating on their wife. I mean, hell, look at the Odyssey. How many chicks did our hero bang on his way home? And did his wife even care?

Jealousy is an ugly beast and one created by society itself, not humanity.

The fact of the matter is that monogamous relationships are only so widespread because the societies which practiced it also liked to practice violence against their neighbors and spread their beliefs through violence once in charge of a country. The 'White Man's Burden' being a wonderful example of this. We spread our beliefs, one of which being monogamy, through genocide.

The number of monogamous relationships attempted proves nothing about the human base condition.

However, the number of them that fail horribly certainly does.

PLUS! There are so many other more likely reasons that people cheat on each other - a sizable portion of these reasons do not reflect healthy social interactions. Lack of communication, withholding sex from your partner as a means of punishment, abuse (physical or emotional). I mean, yeah, let's face it, people are kind of messed up.

These tend to be rationalizations. Of women that admitted to cheating on their husbands, most of them had rationalizations for doing so. Most believing that their husband had cheated on them. How often this was the case is hard to discern. Further, men who gave the same explanation, generally had no rationalization. They had the opportunity and took it. However, if monogamy was hard coded into the human genome:

1) Their husbands wouldn't have cheated on them.

2) They would't have cheated on their husbands afterward.

3) We wouldn't still find other people attractive after having attained a mate.

Proof of this lies in many birds wherein monogamy IS hard coded into their genetics. They do not have sex before finding a life mate as humans do. They do not cheat on their life mates. They never find another life mate after their original has died.

That is what genetic monogamy looks like.

What we have is societal engineering and the enslavement and repression of sexuality to the general detriment of humanity at large. I mean, the romance aspiration in Sims 2 would be WAY easier without your sim fuck-buddies wanting to get all monogamous up in your face.

But just becuase something is the norm doesn't mean it's good or healthy, or even that it is 'hard-coded' into our genes.

I agree.

In fact I never said that 'cheating' was good. Indeed, I believe it is quite the terrible thing. Regardless of whether the proliferation of monogamous thought amongst humanity is a good or bad thing, the fact is that it EXISTS, and as such cheating on someone IS painful, whether it should be or not.

Because of this fact, regardless of how wrong the societal construct is, it should be observed. Randomly cheating on your significant other will not change society. It will only hurt them needlessly. It's far better to simply end a relationship when the urge to cheat gets that strong... even though doing so would most definately be painful as you can still be quite attached to someone.

Plus: Eating burgers is pretty normal, and its certainly neither healthy OR genetically coded.

Yes, Humans kind of cover the board when it comes to types of romantic relationships, but why attribute that to anything more than our unique capability of free will? To create our own unique desires?

I believe I just DID attribute it to that...

So who subscribes to love being a choice you make and who is in the camp of you can't help it when you fall in love?

I don't see how it could be considered a conscious choice any more than liking ice cream or girls could be considered a choice... I don't even really understand the basis of that belief.

[Nique]

You can say whatever you want, but history, science, research, current trends in crime, and every other resource other than the bible belt (who have been saying that since the dawn of time) disagrees with you. Violent crime? Down. Theft? Down.

There was a degree of hyperbole in the sentance you are responding to here. I don't know if that affects your reply at all, but there it is. Whether or not society is 'degrading' (over all of human history) is something I hope you accept is, at the very least, rationally debatable.

I actually find it offensive that sexuality IS seen as evil and immoral

Can we make a distinction between 'sexuality' itself vs. how it's used? I'm not sure I like what sounds like an implication about my belifes, though I'm sure it isn't intended that way.

HOWEVER, they are far from the only way to raise a child.

I want to restate this;

Originally Posted by Me

Or, that the only thing actually hardcoded into our genes is the desire/need for sex.

In light of so many variations on making and raising the next generation, that really seems like the only provable statment.

These tend to be rationalizations. Of women that admitted to cheating on their husbands, most of them had rationalizations for doing so. Most believing that their husband had cheated on them. How often this was the case is hard to discern. Further, men who gave the same explanation, generally had no rationalization. They had the opportunity and took it.

Source? I trust you did the research, I'd just like to see it.

However, if monogamy was hard coded into the human genome:

Nope. I'm as willing to admit it's primarily a social practice as much as you are. Specific types of relationships beyond very basic, maybe say, herding behavior, seem much more like social inventions. The trick to any of them being beneficial is actually using them benevolently.

The only reason I brought up the birds was to say that if such behaviors WERE hardcoded into our genetics, or still relevant in our genome in the face of other human traits, monagamy might be in their as well, even if less prevelently.

In fact I never said that 'cheating' was good. Indeed, I believe it is quite the terrible thing. Regardless of whether the proliferation of monogamous thought amongst humanity is a good or bad thing, the fact is that it EXISTS, and as such cheating on someone IS painful, whether it should be or not.

Let me put it this way; Some of my response to your initial post was motivated by personal feelings about you, actually. I generally think you are a decent human being, and that you do seem to care about relationships - Some of your points had me concerned that you (or anyone, for that matter) might use these opinions as a rationale or excuse for infidelity, either your own or someone else's who is/ could become involved with you in an exlusive relationship. I hope that doesn't come across as insulting or demeaning, and it isn't meant as a dig at your charecter at all. I dunno... Since you felt the need to explain yourself on that point though, I thought I should do the same, and apologize if I put you in a position where you thought you had to validate yourself.

Jealousy is an ugly beast and one created by society itself, not humanity.

I don't know about that. Society does put things in front of me that bring up that emotion, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there to begin with.

I don't see how it could be considered a conscious choice any more than liking ice cream or girls could be considered a choice... I don't even really understand the basis of that belief.

I can actually speak to that - Conciously cultivating 'love' for something is actually an interesting idea becuase it so much goes against the normal romantic notions of love at first sight. I mean, ever tried to look past someone's flaws? Choke down some food you didn't initially like a few times?

[Melfice]

To get away from the scientific discussion above me. =P

Originally Posted by Dynamite220

"Love is a state in which your own happiness is dependant on the safety and happiness of others."

Pretty much how to describe how I feel love.
If I know my girlfriend is safe and happy, I can be happy too. If she's not one of these two, I'll go through lengths to make it happen.

Also, to add to that, love is when you feel content being around somebody. To feel at ease, and being able to share whatever you want with him/her.

My opinion on it, at least.