Another Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[ZAKtheGeek]

Personally I find Deism to be one of several vaguely acceptable answers to a question I can't properly respond to.

Name, where stuff comes from.

[Xaeta]

Originally Posted by Barrel-Hating Sycophant

I assume by that you are a Deist Xaeta?
Do you have a particular slant on Deism? I've heard a couple of unique ones but mostly it seems pretty general, though my deism knowledge comes from 1700's-1800's Deism so if you care to outline current trends in it I would be most appreciatory.

Well formerly I was Roman Catholic, became confirmed, and didn't care much after that. I partake in deism because of it's principal that there was a God who created the universe in which we live in the image that he wanted, but left it be to grow and become something on its own. I believe that while there is a god, he has absolutely nothing to do with our lives and that everything we do is of our own acts ultimately leading us to our after-life where we will be judged for how we lived.
I continue to thrive by a lifestyle based on basic moral codes and disciplines to just live in the moment and not really care too much about the outcome because there's yet to be a greater force to stop us [the human race].

This, however, slightly skews from deism's actual definition based on that beliefs of 'Gods' existence through reason and nature without the supernatural aspect thus leaving 'God' to be like an indifferent entity to how the world grows and has no control over life and our choices. [The abridged definition]

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Yes, that's why I wanted you take on it.
So you still believe in an afterlife, acceptance of which is based upon our actions in life?
I don't know but that seems to me that God is taking an active interest in our lives. He's not directly but he's got an ideal for us to live by and judges us by how we've measured by that ideal.
He doesn't directly make us follow it but He would still prefer us to. Seems fairly interactionist to me.
Though I apologise if I've misrepresented you.

[ZAKtheGeek]

Hm, deism with benefits. I haven't really ever spoken to or investigated any deists, so this is unexpected.

Like, I get that with theism, you can think you know you're being judged by Daddy because you think Daddy's been dropping hints. With deism, no such hints; so where does this whole afterlife + judgment thing come from?

[Xaeta]

Originally Posted by Barrel-Hating Sycophant

Yes, that's why I wanted you take on it.
So you still believe in an afterlife, acceptance of which is based upon our actions in life?
I don't know but that seems to me that God is taking an active interest in our lives. He's not directly but he's got an ideal for us to live by and judges us by how we've measured by that ideal.
He doesn't directly make us follow it but He would still prefer us to. Seems fairly interactionist to me.
Though I apologise if I've misrepresented you.

Oh no no no, it's quite alright.
That's pretty much it - if there is any action that God would take in our lives, I believe it to just be a noble justification for how we lived our life until we reach the after-life. It's like a set of rules that you're told, but is never enforced upon.
Personally, I just don't like the idea that my life is not in my hands and not in my control, you know....

[neyo the king]

Originally Posted by Xaeta

Personally, I just don't like the idea that my life is not in my hands and not in my control, you know...

Dammit, I said I wouldn't come back here...

Look up at that quote. See it? Good. That's why I don't like religion.

No offense to anyone here, but all religion does is make the people who can't take the fact that life is, well, completely random feel comfortable. The second such people feel life is getting out of control, they can always remember that the Big Guy Upstairs is there. Problem is, they start looking to him more and more to control their lives for them, then they wonder why their lives are getting all out of whack...

Actually, no, they let their lives totally screw themselves up because they feel that it's part of Big G's plans. Tell me, does that sound healthy to you? Letting your life screw up completely all because you think that's what He wants?

If you see nothing wrong with that, then, I'm sorry, but I feel you're not to bright.

But, once you pop that bubble of delusion you people call a religion, you start to see the light, that we, and we alone have done all this.

For example, let's say a tree falls on a mans leg, breaking it in a horribly morbid fashion that even DFM would wince at. He picks up his cell phone, calls 911, tells them what happened, they trace the call, saves his sorry butt, and sends him to the emergency room, where a grueling 5 hour surgery is done to stop his leg bones from piercing his lower intestines anymore (not sure how likely this is to happen, but, whatever, this is hypothetical.)

So, what does the guy do after he recovers? He thanks God for being there. I'm sorry, but did God call 911? No, the man did. Did God find the guy? No, the rescue squad did. Did God ship him to the ER? No, the Paramedics did. Did God preform the surgery? No, the surgeons did. Did God do anything useful, like, maybe move the tree before it hit the guy? I mean, surly, God could do something as simple as move a falling tree, right? But, no, he didn't do that, either.

So why the hell would you thank God? The lazy bastard gets all the credit for man's achievements, but none of the complaints when something goes wrong. For, you see, according to the guy, God didn't let the tree fall on him. It was his fault, he's sure.

Praise the deity for the good, and demean yourself for the bad? That can't be good psychologically...

[CABAL49]

Originally Posted by Neyo the King

So why the hell would you thank God? The lazy bastard gets all the credit for man's achievements, but none of the complaints when something goes wrong. For, you see, according to the guy, God didn't let the tree fall on him. It was his fault, he's sure.

Personally, I like what Xaeta said about him living his own life, but it is very confortable to think that there is someone protecting you. Yea, all the trials people go through to prove thier devotion really turns me and a lot of other people away from religion. But people want to know were they came from. Many religion paint man as being the guardians of the Earth and the best scientific answer is that we were simply lucky. I am not saying anyone is wrong, you can't really say that anyone is wrong unless you were there at the beginning. We simply can't agree with each other.

[Xaeta]

Hence my stance on being a deist.

God may be there but he's not affecting our lives at all.

[Serenity]

Originally Posted by CABAL49

I am not saying anyone is wrong, you can't really say that anyone is wrong unless you were there at the beginning.

Let's look at the facts:
FACT: Christianity, the largest religion in the world, portrays life on earth as having started less than 10,000 years ago (at least in the fundamentalist view - theistic evolution is also stupid but in a distinct way).
FACT: Dating of dinosaur fossils conclusively places them, at the earliest, sixty four and a half million years ago.

Which one is true? Hmm, since I didn't live back that long ago, it must be unknowable which one is fact. How about this alternative scenario?

The invisible pink unicorn created the world two hundred years ago, fully formed, with a lot of people, and told them to pretend like the world was older, and added the fossils and stuff to fake the whole deal.

Hah! You can't say that's wrong, because you weren't alive back then!

See? It's retarded to only accept eye-witness evidence. I mean, imagine if they did that in court! Cold-cases would stay cold, and modern forensics technology would be absolutely useless.



As an aside:

Theistic evolution (less dumb, but still kinda dumb) is the premise that evolution was caused by God. Of course, there are many flaws with this theory. Just to name the three most obvious:
• the human eye is built in a moronic way. The squid's eye, on the other hand, is built quite well, without inadvertantly flipping the image and some other crap.
• 99% of all species that have ever existed on earth are currently extinct. Imagine if an engineer had that failure rate! Remember, God is supposed to be omnipotent, so the failed species being prototypes is stupid.
• It's just adding a "God" term in where it isn't necessary. Occam's razor, anyone? If two equations both yield the same results, the smaller one is probably more accurate.

[ZAKtheGeek]

Theistic evolution is almost completely pointless. It's kind of like saying, "Yeah, the earth revolves around the sun due to gravitation, but also, God is guiding it so that we might have seasons."