Ultimate Spider Man: Peter Parker is dead, long live Spider-Man - Page 5

Professor Smarmiarty · 08-08-2011, 11:34 AM

The argument that "He shouldn't be defined by his sexuality" is a terrible one. Yes in a perfect world he shouldn't be but that's nto the world we live in and taking a stand with a major fictional character is useful in combatting prejudice.
And I still don't really understand what your argument is.

Magus · 08-08-2011, 11:45 AM

I guess that if you deal with the societal problems facing minorities, you are only defining the character by their minority status, which is false assertion, I'd say. I'm sure the character will run into problems not informed by his minority status.

Plus as far as I can tell the character isn't gay so flipping out about the character being gay is kind of confusing to me.

Jagos · 08-08-2011, 11:56 AM

The thing is, there's a lot of problems with having him being a stereotype. If race is the only thing that defines him, there's going to be a lot of problems with people accepting him. It's the same problems that Marvel can have with Luke Cage, Panther, or any other black character. In that GO episode, he's the ONLY one without a mask... Who just so happens to be black. And no one thought of this? I think that's going to raise the standards of what people want to see from him.

The thing I'm pointing out with other gay characters is that there's plenty within the regular E-23 universe that aren't defined by just being gay. If Marvel is going to sit there and have either sexuality or race define the new Spiderman, he won't be accepted. It's questioning why bring that up for the character in the future. It's already damn hard to sell a lot of gay characters. But now that you have one that's gay, black and Latino, increases the expectations for him that much more.

Kim · 08-08-2011, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagos

The thing is, there's a lot of problems with having him being a stereotype. If race is the only thing that defines him, there's going to be a lot of problems with people accepting him. It's the same problems that Marvel can have with Luke Cage, Panther, or any other black character. In that GO episode, he's the ONLY one without a mask... Who just so happens to be black. And no one thought of this? I think that's going to raise the standards of what people want to see from him.

The thing I'm pointing out with other gay characters is that there's plenty within the regular E-23 universe that aren't defined by just being gay. If Marvel is going to sit there and have either sexuality or race define the new Spiderman, he won't be accepted. It's questioning why bring that up for the character in the future. It's already damn hard to sell a lot of gay characters. But now that you have one that's gay, black and Latino, increases the expectations for him that much more.

So, you respond to an inclusive character with "What the flying fuck?!" all angry like because people will have high expectations for him?

Also, as I and others have pointed out, they at no point whatsoever said ANYTHING about the new Spiderman being gay.

THEY SAID NOTHING ABOUT THIS. AT ALL.

They said, basically, "Maybe someday it will be normal for a character to be black, or gay, or both." This has been twisted into "We might have our Spiderman be gay" which has in turn been twisted into "Our Spiderman is gay."

Which is ridiculous.

Secondly, you're assuming that his minority status is the only thing which will define him and acting as though him being a minority at all has "unfortunate implications."

You say this without any actual knowledge of the character except for his race and the blown-out-of-proportion possibility that he might possibly maybe be gay perhaps. And you act as though him being a minority MEANS the only thing that will define him is his minority status.

And you conveyed all this with "What the flying fuck?!"

Which is basically you being upset and angry that he's a minority I guess?

Overcast · 08-08-2011, 12:20 PM

Will admit I skipped over a lot so excuse me if this seems off. Spiderman is a big name hero in terms of familiarity to those who have an idea of what comics are. He is not one in the terms of general power in the Marvel Universe. Nor is he so strongly tied to an idea, the fact that he fights crime at all is tied to a very personal situation. The whole hero is very personal to Peter. He has never had a sidekick, never tried to shape a protege. He is Spiderman. Combine this with the fact that creating a new Spiderman when he was not shaped or related in any way save for the costume and they have to deal with trying to make the new character get the powers in a way that doesn't feel contrived.

This is in part why seeing Spiderman become someone else has such a major effect on various fans. To them the more important aspect of Spiderman was not the costume, but the man in it.

In that mindset you have the incoming new guy. Who is, as spoken, black and latino. Now I think the community would have been angry but gotten over it if the media hadn't made such a big deal about it. If the writer hadn't made such a big deal about it. If everyone other than the fans hadn't painted this as the sweetest thing to happen to Spiderman ever.

This puts off an idea that by killing off Peter they have made a marked improvement to what Spiderman was. This feels insulting to people who have so closely related to the character.

So you have retaliation. It comes with a racial bias because that same bias had been used to claim that this was an improvement, which they feel is a bullshit claim.

Me I'm back and forth, and just trying to distance myself from as many opinions as I can so I can read it and see if I like where this is going. The opinions on both sides bother me, and I just want to read my comics in peace.

rpgdemon · 08-08-2011, 12:44 PM

Honestly, I hope that whatever they end up having him be (Gay, black, latino, transexual, whatever!), they just don't remark upon it at all. Like, it's never a plotpoint except as would be expected (Love interest, et cetera). So the guy is just treated like a normal dude. And then all these people will be flipping out going, "I CAN'T BELIEVE THERE'S THIS GAY TRANSEXUAL BLACK LATINO SPIDERMAN OH CRAP IT'S SO OFFENSIVE THAT HE'S JUST A NORMAL DUDE LIKE ANYONE ELSE IN THE MARVEL UNIVERSE."

Kim · 08-08-2011, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overcast

Will admit I skipped over a lot so excuse me if this seems off. Spiderman is a big name hero in terms of familiarity to those who have an idea of what comics are. He is not one in the terms of general power in the Marvel Universe. Nor is he so strongly tied to an idea, the fact that he fights crime at all is tied to a very personal situation. The whole hero is very personal to Peter. He has never had a sidekick, never tried to shape a protege. He is Spiderman. Combine this with the fact that creating a new Spiderman when he was not shaped or related in any way save for the costume and they have to deal with trying to make the new character get the powers in a way that doesn't feel contrived.

There've been several other versions of Spiderman, including a future Spiderman and a Spiderwoman that Peter was all, "Yeah, you can totes be a Spiderhero." These are just the ones I know. So the idea of Spiderman isn't even specific to Peter Parker, and the idea of someone being inspired by his death to take up the mantle is very believable. As for "contrived powers," keep in mind that we continue to accept radioactive spider as an origin story despite its inherent ridiculousness.

Quote:

This is in part why seeing Spiderman become someone else has such a major effect on various fans. To them the more important aspect of Spiderman was not the costume, but the man in it.

Once again, more than one Spiderhero in the Marvel universe.

Quote:

In that mindset you have the incoming new guy. Who is, as spoken, black and latino. Now I think the community would have been angry but gotten over it if the media hadn't made such a big deal about it. If the writer hadn't made such a big deal about it. If everyone other than the fans hadn't painted this as the sweetest thing to happen to Spiderman ever.

This puts off an idea that by killing off Peter they have made a marked improvement to what Spiderman was. This feels insulting to people who have so closely related to the character.

So you have retaliation. It comes with a racial bias because that same bias had been used to claim that this was an improvement, which they feel is a bullshit claim.

"It's okay they're racist because they're just upset people are okay with Peter Parker being replaced."? Pffffffffft.

Quote:

Me I'm back and forth, and just trying to distance myself from as many opinions as I can so I can read it and see if I like where this is going. The opinions on both sides bother me, and I just want to read my comics in peace.

~BoThSiDeZ~

Quote:

Honestly, I hope that whatever they end up having him be (Gay, black, latino, transexual, whatever!), they just don't remark upon it at all. Like, it's never a plotpoint except as would be expected (Love interest, et cetera). So the guy is just treated like a normal dude. And then all these people will be flipping out going, "I CAN'T BELIEVE THERE'S THIS GAY TRANSEXUAL BLACK LATINO SPIDERMAN OH CRAP IT'S SO OFFENSIVE THAT HE'S JUST A NORMAL DUDE LIKE ANYONE ELSE IN THE MARVEL UNIVERSE."

My main problem with this is that being gay does affect people's lives beyond the fact that they're into dudes in ways that there aren't really heterosexual equivalents to. It does impact people's lives, and so long as it's handled well I don't think the comic should shy away from showing that. I'd say the same is probably true of being a person of color.

Nikose Tyris · 08-08-2011, 12:51 PM

In 3 months Gay Black Latino Spiderman will transform into a giant spider, die and Peter Parker will emerge from the corpse with all of Miles Morales's new powers, calling it now.

Edit: For reference, MANY SPIDERMANS

Edit2: And yes, 2099 Spidey was also Latino.

Kim · 08-08-2011, 01:01 PM

Bendis says new Spidey is a long-term plan for the series. I hope he is telling the truth.

Nikose Tyris · 08-08-2011, 01:03 PM

Me too. 2099 was an amazing hero and I'd love to see what Miles is capable of.

08-08-2011, 11:45 AM	#42
Magus Archer and Armstrong vs. the World Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 7,164	I guess that if you deal with the societal problems facing minorities, you are only defining the character by their minority status, which is false assertion, I'd say. I'm sure the character will run into problems not informed by his minority status. Plus as far as I can tell the character isn't gay so flipping out about the character being gay is kind of confusing to me. __________________ The Valiant Review

08-08-2011, 11:56 AM	#43
Jagos FRONT KICK OF DOOM! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Howdy pardner... Posts: 6,399	The thing is, there's a lot of problems with having him being a stereotype. If race is the only thing that defines him, there's going to be a lot of problems with people accepting him. It's the same problems that Marvel can have with Luke Cage, Panther, or any other black character. In that GO episode, he's the ONLY one without a mask... Who just so happens to be black. And no one thought of this? I think that's going to raise the standards of what people want to see from him. The thing I'm pointing out with other gay characters is that there's plenty within the regular E-23 universe that aren't defined by just being gay. If Marvel is going to sit there and have either sexuality or race define the new Spiderman, he won't be accepted. It's questioning why bring that up for the character in the future. It's already damn hard to sell a lot of gay characters. But now that you have one that's gay, black and Latino, increases the expectations for him that much more. __________________ Copyright musings World ramblings Scifi stories

08-08-2011, 12:20 PM	#45
Overcast Cinderella Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Trespassing in the graveyard Posts: 3,076	Will admit I skipped over a lot so excuse me if this seems off. Spiderman is a big name hero in terms of familiarity to those who have an idea of what comics are. He is not one in the terms of general power in the Marvel Universe. Nor is he so strongly tied to an idea, the fact that he fights crime at all is tied to a very personal situation. The whole hero is very personal to Peter. He has never had a sidekick, never tried to shape a protege. He is Spiderman. Combine this with the fact that creating a new Spiderman when he was not shaped or related in any way save for the costume and they have to deal with trying to make the new character get the powers in a way that doesn't feel contrived. This is in part why seeing Spiderman become someone else has such a major effect on various fans. To them the more important aspect of Spiderman was not the costume, but the man in it. In that mindset you have the incoming new guy. Who is, as spoken, black and latino. Now I think the community would have been angry but gotten over it if the media hadn't made such a big deal about it. If the writer hadn't made such a big deal about it. If everyone other than the fans hadn't painted this as the sweetest thing to happen to Spiderman ever. This puts off an idea that by killing off Peter they have made a marked improvement to what Spiderman was. This feels insulting to people who have so closely related to the character. So you have retaliation. It comes with a racial bias because that same bias had been used to claim that this was an improvement, which they feel is a bullshit claim. Me I'm back and forth, and just trying to distance myself from as many opinions as I can so I can read it and see if I like where this is going. The opinions on both sides bother me, and I just want to read my comics in peace. __________________ Time to bust out the glow sticks!

08-08-2011, 12:44 PM	#46
rpgdemon Not a Taco Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 3,313	Honestly, I hope that whatever they end up having him be (Gay, black, latino, transexual, whatever!), they just don't remark upon it at all. Like, it's never a plotpoint except as would be expected (Love interest, et cetera). So the guy is just treated like a normal dude. And then all these people will be flipping out going, "I CAN'T BELIEVE THERE'S THIS GAY TRANSEXUAL BLACK LATINO SPIDERMAN OH CRAP IT'S SO OFFENSIVE THAT HE'S JUST A NORMAL DUDE LIKE ANYONE ELSE IN THE MARVEL UNIVERSE." __________________ I did a lot of posting on here as a teenager, and I was pretty awful. Even after I learned, grew up, and came to be on the right side of a lot of important issues, I was still angry, abrasive, and generally increased the amount of hate in the world, in pretty unacceptable ways. On the off chance that someone is taking a trip down memory lane looking through those old threads, I wanted to devote my signature to say directly to you, I'm sorry. Thank you for letting me be better, NPF.

08-08-2011, 01:01 PM	#49
Kim adorable Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 12,950	Bendis says new Spidey is a long-term plan for the series. I hope he is telling the truth. __________________ this post is about how to successfully H the Kimmy

08-08-2011, 11:34 AM	#41
Professor Smarmiarty Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: K-space Posts: 9,758	The argument that "He shouldn't be defined by his sexuality" is a terrible one. Yes in a perfect world he shouldn't be but that's nto the world we live in and taking a stand with a major fictional character is useful in combatting prejudice. And I still don't really understand what your argument is.