"Fuck Man" or "We're Talking About The Lord Of The Rings Now"

[CABAL49]

Sauron also had a lot of orc sex army build up to catch up on.

[Archbio]

Bagelpants,

And again my point is, it shouldn'tbe obscure lore

That's not a point. I mean, in the story it's obscure lore that Isildur died trying to flee battle while using the powers of a magic Ring (powers which probably nobody stopped to make a PSA on national Gondor television to inform Isildur's contemporaries of) in the middle of the River.

The fact that the battle is kind of famous, famous or very famous (I'm not really taking your "lots of people mention it several time" as informative for several reasons, one of which should be obvious,) doesn't make every aspect and detail of it common knowledge thousands of years after, especially if it includes the king escaping (alone) in a way that wouldn't necessarily be super intuitive to the contemporaries.

The story is written around the idea that it's obscure lore, and you've given no reason why it can't be obscure lore (except for disregard/incomprehension of the nature of the setting as being pre-Information Age (among other things) which doesn't really count as a reason,) so there's no "shouldn't" about it.

And he lives in the land where at least some of the souls of the dead go. Like it'd be like a five minute stroll down the road.

"At least some"? That sure is maybe perhaps a big (kind of) possible, hypothetical plot hole.

Unless the Silmarillion says something about- oh, here we go:

Originally Posted by Page 117

The fate of Men after death, maybe, is not in the hands of the Valar, nor was all foretold in the Music of the Ainur.

I mean, it's unfortunate that Tolkien didn't anticipate this and write a list of the powers and abilities that each of his characters don't have (and which ones they have when they're in the land of the gods and which ones the lose when they take human form,) so that someone doesn't consider them stupid for not using this infinite number of abilities to make the story shorter. It's not like he was trying to impart some kind of myth-like quality or anything.

Then again he also didn't constantly belabour how small a ring is, so it's his own fault.

Also, what Marc v1.0 said.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Your arguments pretty much boil down to "Tolkein said so" which is a pretty inarguable fact- like this shit happened, everyone forgot about the battle, nobody found the ring. Doesn't make anyone less stupid though.
Like they can have ridiculously massive and detailed genealogies and can remember who their great, great, great, great ancestors were but can't remember anything relevant. ACES. Top priority there guys.
And even then it doesn't matter. My argument is that Sauron is incompetent and that stands. He is defeated by a river, he is defeated by a dark cave. How is he supposed to be scary? He sucks massive balls. The only reason he has any chance of finding the rings is because the HEROES dig it up for him. Sauron might as well just play with his cock for the first 5 books. You're less effective than a heatwave sauron.

Your myth argument makes no sense. Tolkein details everything in great massive pointless details for us. What is the point of that if he wants to portray a more fluid, more open history. His encyclopedic style doesn't serve that goal.

But you're arguing the same points, points that have no relevance to me or the argument I'm making.

So now we are going to talk about how much Sauron loves the orc cock. I propose he loves it a huge amount up his bum. Like he lives in a massive kingdom full of orcs, no pretty elves or humans around. Not even any females. Clearly something up there.
Like he has humans working for him, he could go get human pussy if he wanted. But the fact that he sits in mordor clearly indicate that he does not want to do so.

[Marc v4.0]

Originally Posted by Smarty McBarrelpants

All The Words.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Are you contending that Sauron loves the orc cock? Cause you'll need to provide some evidence???

Further evidence of Saurons love for the orc cock- he takes over 1500 years (time from resurrection till the Gman finds it) to learn of the fate of the weapon that will give him ultimate power, who last known location was seen by his troops and who woud take like a 2 mintue search int he library.
Cause it's hard to study with orc cock in the eye.

[Magus]

Once you go orc you never go back, Smarty. Don't knock it until you try it. The barbs on the orc cock--Sauron couldn't get enough. No Dark Lord ever could.

Also the reason Gandalf isn't aware of the stuff from when he was a Maiar (if he ever was aware of it) is when he took on human form he lost a bunch of his powers as a Maiar and his memories of his former "existence" too. A lot of that power comes back after he is resurrected, he is a lot more effective as Gandalf the White, the new chosen leader of the Istari in place of Saruman, than he was as Gandalf the Gray, but you notice his memories of his time as Gandalf the Gray are again obscured and misty, hardly comprehensible too him, like something he read about in an old book happening to someone else. The same thing happened to him when he was changed from a Maiar into human form--he'd have a vague recollection of his past life but it's hardly comprehensible.

Someone else mentioned that the fact that Gollum is so far deep underground in the Misty Mountains that that accounts for why Sauron can't find the ring after he becomes aware of himself again in spirit form.

As for why you can't just drop the ring down a chasm in Moria and forget about it, you do remember that Sauron's servants the Balrogs live in the depths of the earth, right? They run into one and everything in the first book. If you drop it into the depths of the earth then you risk the Balrogs finding it. You can't just drop the ring somewhere and try to forget about it, because Sauron has forever to find it, and besides he can conquer Middle-Earth in the meantime. He can't be completely destroyed unless you destroy the ring, only banished for a time.

You also can't send it to the Elven homeland, since the Valar would not permit it. They are like isolationist freaks over there, only helping to defeat Morgoth after thousands of years of tyranny. They won't get involved again until the Final Battle when Morgoth is set free again. Letting Sauron's ring into their paradise would be like letting Sauron in--it will corrupt and destroy the only place safe from the evil of Morgoth and the fallen Maiar.

[Archbio]

Barglepants,

And even then it doesn't matter. My argument is that Sauron is incompetent and that stands. He is defeated by a river, he is defeated by a dark cave. How is he supposed to be scary? He sucks massive balls. The only reason he has any chance of finding the rings is because the HEROES dig it up for him. Sauron might as well just play with his cock for the first 5 books. You're less effective than a heatwave sauron.

That's your argument? The other waves after waves after waves of dodgy, innacurate and just plain wrong stuff you brought up are irrelevant?

Fine by me.

Sauron isn't defeated by a River.

He's defeated because the heroes dug the Ring up "for him."

If the Ring stays in the River, or it stays with Gollum, or it stays with Tom Bombadil; Sauron still wins. The other peoples of Middle-earth are all weaker than they used to be, and Sauron is poised to conquer everything through sheer military might. If he never finds the Ring after that, he'll be sure to be spited, and he'll only be a fraction of himself forever... but since everybody else is dead or enslaved I think that counts as a Pyrrhic victory at best.

The Ring being found means that the heroes have their only chance to defeat Sauron once the last opportunity passed at Dol Guldur. And a final defeat this time.

And yes, "Gondor doesn't have a nuclear arsenal to defeat Mordor" is "Tolkien says so."

So no, Sauron isn't successful at finding the Ring. However, that doesn't make him an ineffective villain, since he has other objectives for victory and the heroes can only stall him in accomplishing them.

---

he takes over 1500 years (time from resurrection till the Gman finds it) to learn of the fate of the weapon that will give him ultimate power, who last known location was seen by his troops and who woud take like a 2 mintue search int he library.

-Sauron's return is always described as slow and gradual. So calling one point in the process "the resurrection" doesn't ring true.

-Unless it's said in the text when Sauron learns of it, I'm going to be say that's an unknown.

-His troops? He was dead at the time, there's no reason to assume that the orcs understood what had just happened to Isildur (I'd like to see someone write the scene of Sauron briefing trolls and orcs about the magic ring that's the key to all his powers, when he still had it... just in case) and I'm not sure orcs are very big on written history (or any kind of history) or even verbal reports (when their God just went bye bye.) That's just expecting too much of creatures who just really, really like corpses.

-Two minute search at the library? I thought I was exaggerating earlier with the Wikipedia reference and the Gondor National Library.

[Bard The 5th LW]

No matter how many times I see the title I still expect some sort of discussion about Megaman porn.

[Seil]

And coming in at #1...

And what exactly? Please tell us, because throughout the entire 2000-hour run of the Jackson trilogy, we couldn't find a single reason why everyone demonized Sauron like he was a debt-collecting pedophile. Yes, he was building an army to advance on Middle Earth. But who was in that army? What were they fighting for?

This was a world where Orcs were used as target practice among elvish communities. The elves loved that shit. Sauron put a stop to that by offering all the underprivileged creatures a place in his non-race-exclusive army (the only nonsegregated force in Middle Earth other than the Fellowship), with promises of their own country in the future. After what he did for the orcs and the goblins, Sauron was just some towering, mace-wielding folk hero.

Of course the humans and elves couldn't have that, because if orcs moved-in next door to them, their houses' property value would go down. After all, these creatures are dark and smelly and have weird voices. They must be murdered on sight.

We hear a lot about freedom, and the free peoples of Middle Earth standing up to Mordor. What do we mean by "free?" They're certainly not fighting for Democracy -- each kingdom is a monarchy where the people have no say over what the leader does as long as that leader possesses the right genes. And overwhelmingly it seems like what those leaders like to do is shit on the Orcs, and the countless other minorities who Sauron was able to recruit onto his side.

What you were seeing in these films was not an unprovoked act of aggression, undertaken just for the hell of it. You were seeing generations of pent-up frustration by oppressed minorities, harnessed by a leader they could get behind. What Sauron did was nothing more than try to cut out a piece of that Middle Earth dream for himself and his followers, and find land that doesn't require them to live under a continuously erupting volcano.

His methods were violent and there were excesses -- as you see in every revolution. But if Middle Earth doesn't take a moment to understand why Sauron was able to draw tens of thousands of disenfranchised individuals to his cause, then they're destined to fight the same war all over again, as soon as the next Sauron shows up.

[phil_]

Originally Posted by Seil

Also, they eat humans.

Originally Posted by Seil

Minorities which eat humans.

Originally Posted by Seil

A land where they can eat humans.

So, yeah, I'm all for equality and all that, but "Tonight, we dine on man-flesh" kinda throws that all out the window in favor of biological imperative to not be eaten.

Also, I believe you, Archbio. Your arguments against drunk bottom-landers are not in vain.