The Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[Elminster_Amaur]

Originally Posted by Oedy, we shouldn't be calling names

Actually, I think you misunderstood me. I just used "returning to the kindom of god" because it was one of the phrases you used in your post, and I was looking for a term to use. I wasn't putting a christian spin on it or anything, I was trying to speak across all religions.

Even if it is "just caused by the mind", isn't everything else humans do and percieve?

[BitVyper]

Myself, I'm an atheist. I've always found Hinduism a little seductive though. It seems a little more optimistic than Buddhism, with a strong focus on the self. I like how it seems to be more about self-discovery than trying to be something, and it looks pretty open too. Of course, my knowledge on the subject is fairly limited, so I could be way off. Taoism is pretty interesting too.

That said; I would never believe in a god. At least, not in the sense of a sentient being who defines reality at its whim, or at least isn't bound by it, and I wouldn't call anything else a god anyway. Could you even call something like that "real?"

It seems to me though, that Hinduism doesn't really require faith in a higher power, but like I said, I'm not particularly well-read on the subject. Would anyone care to elaborate?

[42PETUNIAS]

Originally Posted by He who must not be named

Even if it is "just caused by the mind", isn't everything else humans do and percieve?

Well, in my opinion, yes, what we do is deined by how our brain reacts to different events. But what we percieve isn't caused by the brain, just as much as a sports game isn't started by a camera filming it.

[Sithdarth]

Although Wikipedia told me that fairly massive black holes couldn't be depleted through Hawking's radiation. Maybe it was wrong. *shrug*

I suppose you could have one so massive that after the radiation escapes it eventually gets sucked back in but I think it'd have to be freaking huge. Like Hundreds of thousands of times more massive than the most massive ones we've found. I'm not even sure its possible.

Then there is the whole thing about it having to not feed for the entire time. Which I think is several times the theoretical maximum lifespan of the universe making it effectively impossible. (That is unless we're wrong about the lifespan of the universe.)

[ZAKtheGeek]

Originally Posted by Elminster_Amaur

Even if it is "just caused by the mind", isn't everything else humans do and percieve?

No; human perception comes from external reality. Unless you wish to jump a page or two back...

Originally Posted by Sith

I suppose you could have one so massive that after the radiation escapes it eventually gets sucked back in but I think it'd have to be freaking huge. Like Hundreds of thousands of times more massive than the most massive ones we've found. I'm not even sure its possible.

Then there is the whole thing about it having to not feed for the entire time. Which I think is several times the theoretical maximum lifespan of the universe making it effectively impossible. (That is unless we're wrong about the lifespan of the universe.)

To quote:

Originally Posted by Wikkeh

It was later found that energy can escape from black holes in an unexpected way, and that therefore black holes can evaporate. In space, virtual particles are continually coming into existence and vanishing on a microscopic scale that is so small they cannot easily be detected. This is a consequence of quantum physics and only works on a subatomic scale. Conceptually, these particles can be imagined to appear in pairs and vanish a tiny fraction of a second later again. For this reason they are not readily noticed. But close to the black hole's event horizon, the intense gravitational field separates the two particles even in the fractional second that they exist. One particle may be absorbed into the black hole, the other escapes. From an external perspective all that is seen is the second of these, giving the appearance of energy being radiated outward, escaping from its gravitational field beyond the event horizon. In this way, paradoxically, black holes can evaporate. This process is thought to be significant for the very smallest black holes, as a black hole of stellar mass or larger would absorb more energy from cosmic microwave background radiation than they lose this way. The radiation emitted is referred to as Hawking radiation.

Sounds like "feeding."

Still makes no sense to me, though. *shrug*

[Sithdarth]

The thing is that background radiation is finite. At some point it runs out and things start evaporating. Oh and that particle that escapes only escapes because it absorbs some of the blackholes mass to give it the umph to travel faster than light and escape the event horizon. Which is why the blackhole gets lighter as time goes on. (Well in the absence of food.)

[ZAKtheGeek]

See, Wikipedia didn't explain that at all.

[Sithdarth]

Its also how this whole process manages to go on without violating several laws of physics. Well without violating to very many laws. It does require particles to travel faster than light and escape from a gravity well that nothing should escape. Apparently that's not as big a deal to the universe as actually creating energy/mass.

[Elminster_Amaur]

No; human perception comes from external reality. Unless you wish to jump a page or two back...

No, that is not true. Human perception comes from the brain interpereting senses. So, everything you percieve is coming from your subconscious mind's processing. External reality MAY be what your mind is interpereting, but that's not always the case. You can percieve different events occuring in dreams, but that is not external reality, now is it?

It seems to me though, that Hinduism doesn't really require faith in a higher power, but like I said, I'm not particularly well-read on the subject. Would anyone care to elaborate?

Very well. I'll attempt to digest some information on Hinduism. Now, with this I'll take no responsibility for its correctness, since I'm just drawing from online sources at the moment, mostly Wiki.

"Hindu" was originally a mispronunciation of a Sanskrit term by Persian invaders. It refers to a location, and until the Indian people decided to use it as a term to describe their religion, it was a rather meaningless term. The name of the religion you are referring to is "Vedic" and the name of their spiritual path is called Sanatana-Dharma.

There are six schools of Hindu philosophy: Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisheshika, Purva Mimamsa and Vedanta.

Modern Hinduism has as its values rational thought, modern education and the ideals of humanism, rationalism and religious universalism. This has meant combating the conservative and obscurantist elements, imbibing modernity, modern education compared to classical Sanskritic education system, and countering Christian missionary criticism.

The positive consequences of modernity in Hinduism is most visible in the status of women and the dalits. Also, ritualism has declined.
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Started by Arya Samaj in early 20th century to bring back to Hinduism people converted to Islam and Christianity. Dayananda claimed to be rejecting all non-Vedic beliefs altogether. Hence the Arya Samaj unequivocally condemned idolatry, animal sacrifices, ancestor worship, pilgrimages, priestcraft, offerings made in temples, the caste system, untouchability and child marriages, on the grounds that all these lacked Vedic sanction. It aimed to be a universal church based on the authority of the Vedas. Dayananda stated that he wanted ‘to make the whole world Aryan’. That is, he wanted to develop missionary Hinduism based on the universality of the Vedas.

To this end the Arya Samaj set up schools and missionary organisations, extending its activities outside India. It now has branches around the world. It has a disproportional amount of adherents among people of Indian ancestry in Suriname and the Netherlands, in comparison with India.

And here's some more for ya.

Prominent themes in Hinduism include Dharma (ethics and duties), Samsāra (rebirth), Karma (right action), and Moksha (liberation from the cycle of samsara). Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism share traits with Hinduism, because these religions originated in India and focus on self-improvement with the general aim of attaining personal (first hand), spiritual experiences. They along with Hinduism are collectively known as Dharmic religions.
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dvaita philosophy declares that ultimately Brahman (the impersonal God) is beyond mere intellectual description and can be understood only through direct spiritual experience, where the 'knower' and the 'known' are subsumed into the act of 'knowing'. The goal is to "wake up" and realize that one's atman, or soul, is really identical to Brahman, the uber-soul.

On the other hand, monotheistic (typically Dvaita Vedanta) and related devotional (bhakti) schools, understand Brahman as a Supreme Being who possesses personality. In these conceptions, Brahman is associated with Vishnu, Shiva or Shakti depending on the sect. Brahman is seen as fundamentally separate from its reliant souls (humanity) so, in achieving liberation, individual beings experience God as an independent being, a living personality, and retain their individual identities.
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The devas are an integral part of Hindu culture and are depicted in art, architecture and through icons. In their personal religious practices, Hindus worship primarily one or another of these deities, known as their iṣṭa devatā, or chosen ideal. The particular form of God worshipped as one's chosen ideal is a matter of individual preference and needs, influenced by regional and family traditions.

Mainstream Hindu philosophy talks about the existence of God, being heavily influenced by the Vedanta school, the dominant philosophical school of Hinduism. Nonetheless, there were earlier atheistic schools such as Samkhya, which did not acknowledge the existence of God.

Most Hindus believe that the spirit or soul, the true "self" of every person, called the ātman, is eternal; as is Brahman, which may be seen as either the greater Self or as God, depending on the outlook. According to the Advaita (non-dualist) schools of philosophy, the individual self and greater Self are not fundamentally distinct. They argue that the core spirit, or "Self", of every individual person is identical with the greater Spirit. Referring to 'brahman' unequivocally as God may reveal problems of semantics, where certain traditions understand God to be a motivating agency with personality and others that it is without personality and form, beyond any sort of definition and thus non-equivalent to the 'God' as understood by dualist schools of Hinduism or Abrahamic understandings of God. According to the Upanishads, whoever gains insight into the depths of his own nature and becomes fully aware of the ātman as the innermost core of his own Self will realize his identity with Brahman and will thereby reach Moksha. According to the Dvaita (dualist) school, (often associated with Vaishnavism), the ātman is not identical with Brahman, which is seen as being God with personality (though not limited); instead, the ātman is dependent on God. Moksha depends on the cultivation of love for God and on God's grace.
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Samsara provides ephemeral pleasures, which lead people to desire rebirth to enjoy the pleasures of a perishable body. However only escaping the world of samsara through moksha (liberation) is believed to ensure lasting happiness or peace. It is thought that after several reincarnations, an atman eventually seeks unity with the cosmic spirit (Brahman/Paramatman).

The ultimate goal of life, referred to as moksha, nirvana or samadhi, is described as the realization of one's union with God; realization of one's eternal relationship with God; realization of the unity of all existence; perfect unselfishness and knowledge of the Self; liberation from ignorance; attainment of perfect mental peace; or detachment from worldly desires. Such a realization liberates one from samsara and ends the cycle of rebirth.
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Someone who practices yoga is called a yogi. The chief texts dedicated to Yoga are the Bhagavad Gita, the Yoga Sutras, the Hatha Yoga Pradipika and, as their philosophical and historical basis, the Upanishads. Paths one can follow to achieve the spiritual goal of life (moksha, samadhi, or nirvana) include:

    * Bhakti Yoga (the path of love and devotion),
    * Karma Yoga (the path of right action),
    * Rāja Yoga (the path of meditation) and
    * Jñāna Yoga (the path of wisdom).
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As in every religion, some view their own denomination as superior to others. However, many Hindus consider other denominations to be legitimate alternatives to their own. Heresy is therefore generally not an issue for Hindus.

I think that the selected passages from those three articles (I got tired of paraphrasing by the end of the first one, once I realized it was the shortest of the three) pretty much sum up the answer to your questions on Hinduism.

Yes, Hinduism does not require a belief in a higher being. Buddhism and Hinduism have the same self-improvement aspect, and generally use the same methods, since Buddhism was very largely influenced by Hinduism. Just like Buddhism, Hinduism is mainly about trying to purify the soul, in order to escape the cycle of rebirth. Hinduism is pretty much just a grouping together of ideals from several dozen ancient religions with various interperetations on how to practice (like all major religions), and has had a great influence over many of the religions with origins near or in India.

[ZAKtheGeek]

Originally Posted by Elminster_Amaur

No, that is not true. Human perception comes from the brain interpereting senses. So, everything you percieve is coming from your subconscious mind's processing. External reality MAY be what your mind is interpereting, but that's not always the case. You can percieve different events occuring in dreams, but that is not external reality, now is it?

Our disagreement seems to stem from the ambiguity of the term, "caused by." All I'm trying to maintain is that not everything humans perceive is entirely of their own invention.