Scientology sees flood of former members speak out.

[MasterOfMagic]

These people are risking losing that which they bargained away their humanity for. To get it back I wager that's a fair trade, and I have a hard time pitying them because THEY PUT THEMSELVES IN THAT POSITION.

Yes. And you or I could have just as easily done the same thing if we had been in their position. Them having their humanity taken away while they were weak does not mean they deserve all of the shit thrown their way.

And do you know anything about military recruitment? I was 17, broke and had very little prospects. They offered me "money for college" and a trade. What I got in return was 6 years of being told I don't suck dick well enough for advancement.

It's the same damn thing, but the difference is you can't get out of the military once you're in without incurring severe criminal charges. With scientology, you can just walk away despite what you might think about losing friends and all that.

Except you got out and got a job that paid you $5,000 in a month. The military has its bad points, and I'm sure your much more well acquainted with them than I, but it doesn't throw people down a shithole and keep kicking.

[Mesden]

Originally Posted by Funka Genocide

You're wrong in a lot of your assumptions there MoM.

These people are risking losing that which they bargained away their humanity for. To get it back I wager that's a fair trade, and I have a hard time pitying them because THEY PUT THEMSELVES IN THAT POSITION.

And do you know anything about military recruitment? I was 17, broke and had very little prospects. They offered me "money for college" and a trade. What I got in return was 6 years of being told I don't suck dick well enough for advancement.

It's the same damn thing, but the difference is you can't get out of the military once you're in without incurring severe criminal charges. With scientology, you can just walk away despite what you might think about losing friends and all that.

Comrades in misery aren't real friends.

Man, you even just admitted it's the same damn thing, but you still insist that you are better than people who haven't gotten out of their situation, like there's no way they ever will. It's baseless, and there's absolutely no reason for you to insult them and brag about how you're better, especially the ones who specifically came out of Scientology at the very real threat of being harmed -- yet you call them pity seeking victims. It's ridiculous.

[BitVyper]

Originally Posted by Funka Genocide

I a terrible 7-Up knock off.

Is not.

oh, and childish pot-shots are totally radical broham.

Obviously. Why else would I take them?

[Funka Genocide]

I'm not saying they deserve this, I'm saying I'm not surprised they suffered the fate they brough ton themselves. No one DESERVES to be brutalized or abused, but people set themselves up for it and then wonder why.

I do not abhor their actions because they were abused, but because they allowed themselves to be abused.

Try reading more than what you want out of what I post.

@Mesden: well to be fair, money for college offered by a government institution is a bit more substantial of a carrot on a stick than eternal salvation at the hands of space jesus. But yes, I slipped up much the same way these scientologists did, however I maintained my individuality and free will at the cost of my own comfort and success within the institution, whereas they bought it all hook line and sinker and then wondered why their dreams were smashed.

[Mesden]

Oh, okay, you just consider them cowards, pussies, and pity their pathetic existences? I'm not sure what definition of abhor you use. It's hypocritical to the nth degree.

Originally Posted by Funka Genocide

@Mesden: well to be fair, money for college offered by a government institution is a bit more substantial of a carrot on a stick than eternal salvation at the hands of space jesus.

I think it's more importantly a supportive group of peers who've been through and understand your hardships. You can say money for college is still better but that's still subjective.

[Funka Genocide]

well yeah, but I mean I feel that way about all religions so uh...

what are we talking about again?

oh right, the military isn't a religion, it's just an institution akin to indentured servituted. There's very little delusion involved, you get bullets and put them into foreigners.

and honestly who would have issue witha support network of peers working together for common goals? Like the boyscouts or something?

That's cool, I mean so are "friends" and "family" and "loved ones" you're stretching everything I've said and trying to demonize it, when you should just take it as face value. Having to rely on something real isn't weakness, it's human.

Tricking yourself into believing your privvy to the secrets of existence because some old dude said so is weakness of the highest degree.

[Geminex]

There is a threshold where human fallibility gives way to willful ignorance,

So there is. Can you define this threshhold? Can you prove that this threshhold is here and nowhere else? Can you prove that, being in the mental state of, say, Jackie Wolff, you wouldn't have acted in the same manner?

All of this is subjective. How they felt. Why they reacted. It's all subjective.

Not to mention, that by adhering to the belief that you're superior, you're sacrificing individuality for the feeling of superiority. Not exactly the same, but not so very different.

[MasterOfMagic]

Originally Posted by Funka Genocide

I'm not saying they deserve this, I'm saying I'm not surprised they suffered the fate they brough ton themselves. No one DESERVES to be brutalized or abused, but people set themselves up for it and then wonder why.

I do not abhor their actions because they were abused, but because they allowed themselves to be abused.

This completely throws away any reasoning for why they might have allowed it. You're disregarding a terribly important part of this whole thing just to make yourself look superior. Its not always so easy as "tell them to fuck off!". Pay more attention to what was happening.

Tricking yourself into believing your privvy to the secrets of existence because some old dude said so is weakness of the highest degree.

No one here is saying they are not, or were not weak (though the one's who have spoken out sure made a hell of a turn-around). At least, I haven't seen it. What I'm saying is that your disdain of their feelings and troubles because of this is completely unjustified.

[Sir Pinkleton]

I think the two prevailing arguments of thought are superiority of those who're suffering in the cult and how long it takes to get indoctrinated meaning something for justifying their nature.

"I'm not such a weak-minded individual to get suckered into a cult and let that happen to me," at least sounds to me like a I'm-superior comment, whether it is or not, and I think that's where some of the arguing is coming from. Some people condemn feelings of superiority in any sense (because it's not modern, it's not fair, or whatever) and others don't think much about it ("Well, I know I wouldn't get into trouble like that. That's just stupid.") Whether or not these two sides of the argument feel that's what they're saying, it looks like that's how both sides are being presented. If any of this makes sense. >>

And then there's this argument that "it doesn't matter how long you've been in the church, you shouldn't allow it to get that far," and "It's a gradual process that everyone can be subjective to."

Defining positions on these issues might make discussion less flamey (no offense to anyone) and more... I guess progressive is the word.

[Mesden]

Originally Posted by Funka Genocide

Tricking yourself into believing your privvy to the secrets of existence because some old dude said so is weakness of the highest degree.

Sorry Funka, your degree of weakness is so much weaker than mine that I pity the likes of you and consider you nothing but a cowardly pussy for finding yourself in the situation to join a large supportive structure to help get you life back on track, regardless of what actual effects it may endear!


Obviously sarcasm, but there's no definitive degree to which something is weakness. You oversimplify the situation of thousands of people and automatically assert that your self cited situation is a much less 'pathetic' (I hate the use of this word, personally) one for no reason other than you say and think so. Anecdotal, subjective, reasonless, and hypocritically unfair to those that you generalize and spite.