Pokemon Umbral Discussion 30: Less and Less About Pokemon Each Day - Page 6

Dracorion · 06-18-2010, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geminex

And I don't think "really close to death" can come from just being reduced to zero HP.

So does that mean we haven't killed anyone ever?

Because I don't think that's quite appropriate. Not that Pierce would mind, but I'm pretty sure Impact and Charlotte and maybe Matthias would've killed their KOs so far.

Because, see, if you can't bring someone close to death by reducing them to zero HP then you certainly haven't killed them. Unless you're suggesting that "zero HP =/= near-death" only applies to us good guys, which is ridiculous. It's simply not plausible that we can get by only seriously wounded but otherwise very much alive while leaving only the bloodied, burned and beaten corpses of our enemies? These people are supposed to be trying their damnedest to kill us, even moreso than we are them.

So for everyone, zero HP should mean either dead or really close to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geminex

Anyway, this discussion is stupid. Just like you.

No, you!!!

Yeah, I can't really let this go without getting in the last word.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geminex

Hey, AB, how is going Rogue handeled? Under what circumstances will trainers' pokemon go rogue? Will battle masters' (and other classes') pokemon go rogue as soon as their masters reach zero HP, if their masters are actively fighting?
And how should we treat being at zero HP? Utter unconciousness? Or can our characters at least still talk, move slightly, edge-of-conciousness kind of thing?

See, you're making that last part sound like a request, rather than a question. Meaning AB will be inclined to put it the way you want it to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geminex

Nope. I calculated, unless he started battle with 200, he'll be at 400 at the start of this turn.

Ssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Menarker · 06-19-2010, 12:47 AM

The only reason why I felt burned by Drac's comment "You're a silly doodle" is because one of my closest female online friends frequently used that term as a term of endearment toward me. Hearing that phrase from Drac and from Burkmont in the above omake makes me FLINCH!

As for the plan...
I got no issues whatsoever with Renny's portion of it. Gladly wash the oil off Harriette. (Wet T-shirt, oh my! =P)
Seems odd that we'd have Kurika attempt a "Nerve Strike" on Cerulean (who probably doesn't have nerves, or ones like humans at least). Ah well.
Thirdly, Harliette has 100 rage now. Don't suppose we should have her use her Desperado attack or something? Isn't there anything she could use her 100 rage for effectively?

Other than that, if all the assumptions that were made in the plan is accurate, I'd vote for it.

Geminex · 06-19-2010, 01:06 AM

Harliette had 100 rage last turn as well. I'm having her nidoqueen use a focused earthquake every turn, just to use some of it, until there's more enemies on-field, for her to use Desparado. That works, no?

Menarker · 06-19-2010, 01:18 AM

Ah. I figured that we were taking advantage of rain dance and STAB bonus due to water armor to boost the power of her aqua shot to focus the damage on Wildfire to defeat her regeneration (Need to force enough damage in one turn).

Otherwise, I would advise using the ability now, since the tanks are Large sized (count as two slots) and thus there are three outcomes since there are 4 shots.
A: Both tanks get hit twice. Wildfire is unaffected.
B: Water Tank get hit twice while the Fire Tank gets hit once and Wildfire get hit once.
C: Fire Tank get hit twice while the Water Tank gets hit once and Wildfire get hit once.

Still. Focused Earthquake is good idea.

Since we're using Magnet Crush on the tanks though to hold them down, there is little reason to have Harriette use a damage spread attack at the moment though since we're trying to do enough damage to Wildfire in one shot.

Astral Harmony · 06-19-2010, 03:14 AM

Almighty is the new word for no-type. It comes from the Shin Megami Tensei series, where Almighty has no resistances, no strengths, no status, and can't be guarded by any kind of special defense.

Plasmaburn should heal automatically on the third turn switched out.

Yes, Harliette will be protected from negative status due to Rachel's ability.

Rogue Pokemon fight based on a pathetic little strategy: 100% buff on the first turn, 50% on second turn, attack moves on third turn or on first if no buff moves are available. When suffering from status effects or low HP, they will use moves to cure and heal up. If those don't exist, they simply fight until death. A Pokemon that is already defeated before going rogue will simply die at the end of the turn in which it does go rogue, no moves made or nothin'.

You should know the circumstances of Pokemon going rogue. If I say that trainer is defeated, doesn't matter who they are, those Pokemon go rogue.

Defeated characters aren't necessarily dead, they just can't continue the fight. This is usually do to severe weakness, exhausted muscles, too much blood loss, wounds that need serious medical attention, unconsciousness, being a douchebag, having an allergy to fanservice (I'm keeping the fanservice regardless), chronic bowel voiding, psychological trauma, low resale value on your home, and erectile dysfunction.

Geminex · 06-19-2010, 04:02 AM

Quote:

If I say that trainer is defeated, doesn't matter who they are, those Pokemon go rogue.

But why on earth would this apply to battle masters, or legion mages? They enter combat out of their own free will! Why would their pokemon get enraged at their master's demise when their master was stupid enough to fight?
I'm imagining a trainer holding up a bank by going "Don't move, or I'll kill myself!", and he's sucessful, cause nobody wants to risk his pokemon going Rogue.

What I'd propose is:
>0 HP: Able to fight, not too badly wounded
0 HP: Defenseless and badly wounded. Unable to fight, use techniques, or items, but still able to move and communicate. Concious, but dying slowly, and will die if trainer dies (only for pokemon), if they are attacked directly, or if party loses battle. Trainers are always considered to be at zero HP (though they can trainer attack regardless)
Dead: Unable to be revived using field items, still saveable if receiving medical treatment. If trainers (or any pokemon-using classes) enter this state, their pokemon go rogue.

As for the second bit, cool. I assme Impact can talk, so he'll be giving orders.

Quote:

Plasmaburn should heal automatically on the third turn switched out.

Also, cool. But I don't intend to keep him switched out for three turns, I intend to keep him switched out for one turn, and then use a full restore. Will that work?

And Drac, dammit, next time tell me when you're editing my plan into a post of yours. Especially if my plan is not the same as it once was.

Menarker · 06-19-2010, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Almighty is the new word for no-type. It comes from the Shin Megami Tensei series, where Almighty has no resistances, no strengths, no status, and can't be guarded by any kind of special defense.

Cool. So, my proposed invented technique "Valiant Rush" is Almighty Typed then. ^^

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geminex

But why on earth would this apply to battle masters, or legion mages? They enter combat out of their own free will! Why would their pokemon get enraged at their master's demise when their master was stupid enough to fight?
I'm imagining a trainer holding up a bank by going "Don't move, or I'll kill myself!", and he's sucessful, cause nobody wants to risk his pokemon going Rogue.

Because just because someone fights doesn't mean they are stupid. Otherwise, the entire group of PATCA is a pack of morons, with slayers being the biggest morons for directly fighting in combat. The entire notion revolves around comradery. The pokemons defend the knocked out trainer so the situation doesn't get any worse when the trainers are unable to defend themselves/flee under their own power. It can be assumed that Battle Masters have practiced and demostrated their skill enough to their pokemons to be trusted not to be suicidal douchebags and be worthy of protecting.

You're just bitter because no pokemon would wanna protect you without being given orders. :3

Geminex · 06-19-2010, 08:50 AM

Yes. But by entering combat they conciously risk getting injured.
They aren't stupid for fighting. But I understand that pokemon go rogue because
a) their trainers are too weak to control them any longer
b) they're enraged at their trainer getting killed

While a) is likely to still happen in that situation, it's unjustified for pokemon to get enraged at their trainers getting badly hurt when the trainers willingly enter a situation in which they can get badly hurt.

And that's all ignoring the fact that going Rogue wasn't introduced to make Battle Masters or Legion Mages stronger, it was introduced so I don't have Impact mow down all enemy trainers with the HV rifle as soon as the battle began. Sure, let's use it where it fits the plot, but I don't think it should become a frequently-used mechanic.

Menarker · 06-19-2010, 08:58 AM

Well, pokemons aren't just beasts. Some of the more clever and intelligent ones may have motives or agendas. Assuming they know why a trainer fights (The pokemon knows their trainer is fighting crime or that the foes they are fighting is threatening the pokemon world?) their motivation to defend their trainer may be a last ditch motive to ensure they got someone who can lead them. Friendship is likely to be the highest motivation for a pokemon to defend their trainer, but given the RP's plotline, a pokemon might be motivated for grander ideals if they felt their trainer was the best/reliable way to get there.

The only way I can see it being abused is if one of the trainers became a pokebrid and only using moves that knock them out of combat like Explosion or Healing Wish, or by being batshit insane and throwing themselves in combat without trying to defend themselves (Basically trying to get knocked out for the sake of being knocked out).

Which in that case, AB might just have them all jump out of the pokeballs and go rogue, but they all instantly decide to grab coffee and be the next group of pokegeddons instead of saving their slavedriver.

Otherwise, it's purely defensive and rather unexploitable mechanic since a foe who knows about the rules of pokemons going rogue is unlikely to target a trainer directly with moves meant to knock them out, as opposed to using status moves, unless they were super powerful and assured of their victory. Of course, this can't be relied on as there might be foes unaware of this fact who are strong enough not to care and they might target a trainer who attacks them, not knowing this rule. (Maybe Dinner? She's not from the pokemon world after all.)

Geminex · 06-19-2010, 09:09 AM

I'm not saying it's a problem with trianers.

But with dual classes? It practically makes a trainer dual class invincible until their pokemon are dead. Look, a Pokebrid/Slayer is a high-priority target. Higher so than just pokemon, right? So enemies would prefer to attack them over their pokemon.

But if their pokemon go rogue if they just reach 0 HP (which, I believe, AB is saying), Battle Master/Legion Mages can just hide behind their pokemon, trust their enemies not to attack them despite being a high-priority target. It's simple, really, and the way things are, it's going to be abused as a matter of course once we get that far.

Not to mention all the other stuff that could happen. I mean, what motivation does a legion mage have to refrain from using belly drum? None! Worst-case scenario, they get a huge attack boost, worst-case scenario the enemy's attacks knock them out, and all six of their pokemon go rogue.

That's why I want to instate the system whereby going-rogue only happens when a zero-hp pokebrid or slayer gets attacked, or if a trainer gets attacked directly. It's a gimmick that was used to prevent me from cheating. It shouldn't be used to help you cheat, it's not like you need the help.

06-19-2010, 12:47 AM	#52
Menarker OMG! WHAT SHOULD I DO NOW? Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,802	The only reason why I felt burned by Drac's comment "You're a silly doodle" is because one of my closest female online friends frequently used that term as a term of endearment toward me. Hearing that phrase from Drac and from Burkmont in the above omake makes me FLINCH! As for the plan... I got no issues whatsoever with Renny's portion of it. Gladly wash the oil off Harriette. (Wet T-shirt, oh my! =P) Seems odd that we'd have Kurika attempt a "Nerve Strike" on Cerulean (who probably doesn't have nerves, or ones like humans at least). Ah well. Thirdly, Harliette has 100 rage now. Don't suppose we should have her use her Desperado attack or something? Isn't there anything she could use her 100 rage for effectively? Other than that, if all the assumptions that were made in the plan is accurate, I'd vote for it. __________________ THE BIO OF RENNY TRESSERHORN THE BIOs OF POKEMON UMBRAL!

06-19-2010, 01:18 AM	#54
Menarker OMG! WHAT SHOULD I DO NOW? Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,802	Ah. I figured that we were taking advantage of rain dance and STAB bonus due to water armor to boost the power of her aqua shot to focus the damage on Wildfire to defeat her regeneration (Need to force enough damage in one turn). Otherwise, I would advise using the ability now, since the tanks are Large sized (count as two slots) and thus there are three outcomes since there are 4 shots. A: Both tanks get hit twice. Wildfire is unaffected. B: Water Tank get hit twice while the Fire Tank gets hit once and Wildfire get hit once. C: Fire Tank get hit twice while the Water Tank gets hit once and Wildfire get hit once. Still. Focused Earthquake is good idea. Since we're using Magnet Crush on the tanks though to hold them down, there is little reason to have Harriette use a damage spread attack at the moment though since we're trying to do enough damage to Wildfire in one shot. __________________ THE BIO OF RENNY TRESSERHORN THE BIOs OF POKEMON UMBRAL! Last edited by Menarker; 06-19-2010 at 01:21 AM.

06-19-2010, 03:14 AM	#55
Astral Harmony Don't Hate Me 'Cause I'm Moe Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Harmonial Sanctum Posts: 6,798	Almighty is the new word for no-type. It comes from the Shin Megami Tensei series, where Almighty has no resistances, no strengths, no status, and can't be guarded by any kind of special defense. Plasmaburn should heal automatically on the third turn switched out. Yes, Harliette will be protected from negative status due to Rachel's ability. Rogue Pokemon fight based on a pathetic little strategy: 100% buff on the first turn, 50% on second turn, attack moves on third turn or on first if no buff moves are available. When suffering from status effects or low HP, they will use moves to cure and heal up. If those don't exist, they simply fight until death. A Pokemon that is already defeated before going rogue will simply die at the end of the turn in which it does go rogue, no moves made or nothin'. You should know the circumstances of Pokemon going rogue. If I say that trainer is defeated, doesn't matter who they are, those Pokemon go rogue. Defeated characters aren't necessarily dead, they just can't continue the fight. This is usually do to severe weakness, exhausted muscles, too much blood loss, wounds that need serious medical attention, unconsciousness, being a douchebag, having an allergy to fanservice (I'm keeping the fanservice regardless), chronic bowel voiding, psychological trauma, low resale value on your home, and erectile dysfunction. Last edited by Astral Harmony; 06-19-2010 at 03:17 AM.

06-19-2010, 08:58 AM	#59
Menarker OMG! WHAT SHOULD I DO NOW? Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,802	Well, pokemons aren't just beasts. Some of the more clever and intelligent ones may have motives or agendas. Assuming they know why a trainer fights (The pokemon knows their trainer is fighting crime or that the foes they are fighting is threatening the pokemon world?) their motivation to defend their trainer may be a last ditch motive to ensure they got someone who can lead them. Friendship is likely to be the highest motivation for a pokemon to defend their trainer, but given the RP's plotline, a pokemon might be motivated for grander ideals if they felt their trainer was the best/reliable way to get there. The only way I can see it being abused is if one of the trainers became a pokebrid and only using moves that knock them out of combat like Explosion or Healing Wish, or by being batshit insane and throwing themselves in combat without trying to defend themselves (Basically trying to get knocked out for the sake of being knocked out). Which in that case, AB might just have them all jump out of the pokeballs and go rogue, but they all instantly decide to grab coffee and be the next group of pokegeddons instead of saving their slavedriver. Otherwise, it's purely defensive and rather unexploitable mechanic since a foe who knows about the rules of pokemons going rogue is unlikely to target a trainer directly with moves meant to knock them out, as opposed to using status moves, unless they were super powerful and assured of their victory. Of course, this can't be relied on as there might be foes unaware of this fact who are strong enough not to care and they might target a trainer who attacks them, not knowing this rule. (Maybe Dinner? She's not from the pokemon world after all.) __________________ THE BIO OF RENNY TRESSERHORN THE BIOs OF POKEMON UMBRAL! Last edited by Menarker; 06-19-2010 at 09:06 AM.

06-19-2010, 01:06 AM	#53
Geminex SOM3WH3R3 Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 4,606	Harliette had 100 rage last turn as well. I'm having her nidoqueen use a focused earthquake every turn, just to use some of it, until there's more enemies on-field, for her to use Desparado. That works, no?

06-19-2010, 08:50 AM	#58
Geminex SOM3WH3R3 Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 4,606	Yes. But by entering combat they conciously risk getting injured. They aren't stupid for fighting. But I understand that pokemon go rogue because a) their trainers are too weak to control them any longer b) they're enraged at their trainer getting killed While a) is likely to still happen in that situation, it's unjustified for pokemon to get enraged at their trainers getting badly hurt when the trainers willingly enter a situation in which they can get badly hurt. And that's all ignoring the fact that going Rogue wasn't introduced to make Battle Masters or Legion Mages stronger, it was introduced so I don't have Impact mow down all enemy trainers with the HV rifle as soon as the battle began. Sure, let's use it where it fits the plot, but I don't think it should become a frequently-used mechanic.

06-19-2010, 09:09 AM	#60
Geminex SOM3WH3R3 Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 4,606	I'm not saying it's a problem with trianers. But with dual classes? It practically makes a trainer dual class invincible until their pokemon are dead. Look, a Pokebrid/Slayer is a high-priority target. Higher so than just pokemon, right? So enemies would prefer to attack them over their pokemon. But if their pokemon go rogue if they just reach 0 HP (which, I believe, AB is saying), Battle Master/Legion Mages can just hide behind their pokemon, trust their enemies not to attack them despite being a high-priority target. It's simple, really, and the way things are, it's going to be abused as a matter of course once we get that far. Not to mention all the other stuff that could happen. I mean, what motivation does a legion mage have to refrain from using belly drum? None! Worst-case scenario, they get a huge attack boost, worst-case scenario the enemy's attacks knock them out, and all six of their pokemon go rogue. That's why I want to instate the system whereby going-rogue only happens when a zero-hp pokebrid or slayer gets attacked, or if a trainer gets attacked directly. It's a gimmick that was used to prevent me from cheating. It shouldn't be used to help you cheat, it's not like you need the help.