Dwarves vrs. Elves(Wrong Forum?)

[Forever Zero]

Originally Posted by krylo

Directed toward Dragon. And, once you need three times the people to kill ONE of the opposing race, you're pushing things (as far as race superiority). Also, all the dwarves would have to fire at exactly the same time, each hitting a different faerie in order for that to work... and at five hundred yards, the faeries would have seen them before hand unless they were very well camouflaged.

The camouflage is a givin. They may have civil war tech, but after one fight and the sidhe melt them, they won't take to any open battles after that...

And it doesn't have to be practical. This is assuming Sidhe Faeries and Arcanum Dwarves go to war. The dwarves won't care about race advantage, they will do whatever is necessary to try and win, and if that means 3:1 numbers, so be it.

And... I doubt the dwarves would get a chance to adapt. "Our bullets aren't working! Quick! Get the cata... hey... why is there a burning pile of rubble where the catapult used to be... and why is it raining burning stones. OH GOD! MY FLESH IS MELTING OFF!"

That scenario got me laughing, but I meant in more of an Ambush scenario. The dwarves would have a few battles go wrong, then would be at the current doctrine of battle.

1. Snipers, well hidden, attack Faeries.
2. With 3:1 numbers, most if not all faeries would be incapacitated.
3. Survivors will cast Stone Skin and/or Air Wall.
4. The Faeiries won't be attacked until they are in just the right location.
5. The Heavy Artillery will fire as soon as Faeries enter said position and they first hear gunfire. It doesn't matter if the snipers succeeded or not, they will bomb the Faerie survivors anyway in hopes of weeding them out.
6. Infantry move in and finish incapacitated faeries.

[Pretty Mary K]

Dwarves are vikings

Vikings are Scandinavian pirates with no table manners

Any pirates are cool with me

[Dragonsbane]

I've been arguing for both sides, Krylo, and I still think elves would win.....if they were drow. Also, the title of this thread is "Dwarves vrs. Elves" not "Dwarves vs. Sidhe" the Sidhe were all expert mages, AND extraplanar fey beings of immense power, they would have no trouble beating a mortal race.......and dwarves, for the record, aren't as stupid as Goku/Gogeta, but they wouldn't spontaneously develop the technology to make guns.

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Ih8stupidppl

1. But all a dwarf has to do is hit and elf ONCE, where even the best elf has to beat on a dwarf for a long time to make him stop kicking.

No, all an elf has to do is place an arrow or sword in the right place on a dwarf's armor and they'll stop moving. You can have a five billion bonus to con and an arrow or sword in your face is going to kill you.

2. C'mere and try to stab me in the crotch and tell me its easy. And a blow to the knees with an axe is not "painful"...its debilitating. Furthermore, my head is a significantly smaller target than my stomach. And Dwarves have these nifty things called HELMETS that make stabbing their head hard.

Sure, gimmie a rapier and I'll pierce your crotch quite easily. I just tilt my arm down a bit as I thrust, and that's where it goes. I don't have to bend over or anything. You MAY move... but I'm not as fast as an elf, and you aren't as slow as a dwarf...

And dwarven helmets don't cover their faces, thus provide little to no protection from a thrust...

3. Maybe they don't get hit as often, but when they do...GAME OVER.

Yes... and when an elf gets a hit between the armor bits it's also game over. All in all, they probably even out in this aspect.

4. Depends on who you ask. It has been speculated that dwarves were able to use rudimentary rune magic. And Dwarven weapons are so good they don't need to be magical. Magical weapons in LOTR are not better, except they are maybe a little sharper, or balanced better, etc, something that good smithying can match. A dwarven KNIFE pierced the armor of Glaurung, OLDEST and MOST POWERFUL of the original dragons. It also pried the Silmaril from the crown of Melkor. There are others, but I can't remember them.

Tell that to Gandalf... who flat out said that the magical weapons they found on those trolls in the hobbit were of amazing quality... not to mention the small army of goblins they managed to kill with them.

5. No. dwarves get a Constitution bonus.

And elves take a shot to strength...

6. Yes it does. Elves are meddlers, dwarves are isolationists who kill orcs for fun.

If by 'meddlers' you mean 'isolationist' and by 'isolationists who kill orcs for fun' you mean 'isolationists who die to a single balor, goblins, and orcs'...

7. Who's wearing plate mail? Oh yeah, not elves. You just argued for the dwarves, but your knowledge of armor isn't good enough for you to realize it. Most of the armor in LOTR is either chain mail, or a single breastplate, and most wood elves don't wear armor at all. An axe will do significantly more damage to those two armor types than an arrow, because they don't provide adequate protection from either. The only people wearing plate armor in LOTR are men, and they're not coming into this argument.

Acutally, chain mail was worn underneath plate mail. The longbow pierced both, and was the only reason that plate mail fell out of style in medieval europe... AND elves are much better at aiming a bow than a human longbowman, and could probably plant their arrows in dwarvish faces...

A longbow will pierce ANY armor except for some asian types that involved wet silk and studs...

8. Scots are badasses. Didn't you see Braveheart?

The english still beat them like little bitches until Mel came along. Besides, an accent does not a badass make. I could talk like a scot, doesn't mean I can wield a claymore.

9. You're wrong, as I stated earlier.

I restate the stat sheets. If you're using it for their con bonus in the first point, then I get to use it for them taking a hit to int.

10. Aragorn GREW UP in Rivendell, he recieved his training from-get this!- OTHER RANGERS! i.e., the Dunedain.

Pah, maybe I remembered wrong, then. Humans kick everyone's ass. Happy?

The camouflage is a givin. They may have civil war tech, but after one fight and the sidhe melt them, they won't take to any open battles after that...

And it doesn't have to be practical. This is assuming Sidhe Faeries and Arcanum Dwarves go to war. The dwarves won't care about race advantage, they will do whatever is necessary to try and win, and if that means 3:1 numbers, so be it.

Oh, we're going to WAR now? Dwarves lose after one battle. Faeries go on the offensive, and melt down their homes, slaughter their women and children, shave the men, and then enslave them.

Read up on the unseelie sometime. These are 'creatures', I'm loathe to even call them people, that would kidnap people and torture humans to death for fun. Their throne room was reportedly covered in blood, and the screams of the tortured could be heard from all corners of their realm. I don't feel like going into more detail... but they lost the ability to reproduce sexually, and so they would do so by kidnapping human babies and performing magical rites to make that human into one of them permanently. Just to give a small example of the powers at their disposal.

While you're at it, read up on the Seelie... they aren't as bad, actually, they're pretty nice, but they'd still have no qualms about wiping out a race that was trying to wipe them out. Although they probably wouldn't enslave any of them.

That scenario got me laughing, but I meant in more of an Ambush scenario. The dwarves would have a few battles go wrong, then would be at the current doctrine of battle.

1. Snipers, well hidden, attack Faeries.
2. With 3:1 numbers, most if not all faeries would be incapacitated.
3. Survivors will cast Stone Skin and/or Air Wall.
4. The Faeiries won't be attacked until they are in just the right location.
5. The Heavy Artillery will fire as soon as Faeries enter said position and they first hear gunfire. It doesn't matter if the snipers succeeded or not, they will bomb the Faerie survivors anyway in hopes of weeding them out.
6. Infantry move in and finish incapacitated faeries.

Few things wrong. Snipers well hidden and attack faeries. First faerie to have a bullet pass through or be missed SINGLE HANDEDLY casts a spell that kills most, if not all, the snipers. This saves many faerie lives and allows the numbers to be more equal later, as they remove bullets from each other. Also, faeries always travel by flight (or magical means), so it wouldn't be hard to find the snipers once a single bullet was fired. And, usually more than 500 yards up, but we'll say they're getting ready to land at their destination, just so the dwarves can hit them with their civil war weapons.

Then the bombs start going off, faeries toss up protection spells, wait until a break, and then wipe out the heavy artillery and infantry as well.

IF all else fails, it only takes one survivor getting back to doom the entire dwarf race, or at least the nation that attacked.

[IHateMakingNames]

Since krylo mentioned it, I feel I should point out that if the elves unleashed a Balor, they would not survive.

[Pretty Mary K]

Elves are pansies. The guys who like elves are the same guys who like vanilla ice cream plain, and hot dogs with no condiments on top. They're the type of guys who buy those paintings that elephants in captivity make. You know the ones I mean.

[Dragonsbane]

I'd like to add that dwarves take a hit to Charisma, not Intelligence. Elves take a hit to Constitution, but make up for it with a bonus to Dexterity (for a typical high elf/moon elf). Its a slower, tougher guy vs. a quick, agile, yet delicate creature.....Elves often use piercing weapons in order to get between gaps in an opponent's armor, and Krylo was correct about that. The Scots were only beaten because the British had better weapons, more money, and way more troops.....one for one the Scottish win every time.

[Forever Zero]

Faeries fly?! Alright, that just throws all my plans out the window... I figured they walked like Elves. If they fly, that gives them permenant height advantage, removes all dwarf covor, and makes them better able to see where the dwarves would be fighting from.

If I can use dwarves from ANY time frame, I would use Shadowrun dwarves and they would probably stand a chance, but that is getting so far off topic even I won't go there...

So basically flight gives the Faeries all the advantage they need to beat the dwarves, and I concede defeat.

And on a side note, I will now need to look up the Seelie and Unseelie. There is a mention of both houses in the WoD Changeling RPG Book, but they butcher historical fact so I can't rely on that for the historical background of the two groups...

[Krylo]

Since krylo mentioned it, I feel I should point out that if the elves unleashed a Balor, they would not survive.

Well, they wouldn't be able to kill it alone. They'd run like hell, though... and probably get help from some mages and any allies they could. Unlike the dwarves who locked themselves up and got eaten.

Of course, the elves, being more magically intune and less greedy, would know better than to unleash a balor in the first place, more than likely.

Edit: FZ,

six feet tall with a weakness to iron + the ability to fly + magical powers to the point that even the most inept has magic that would be impressive even to elves (barring drow, although their 'innate magic' beats out innate drow magic easily [although they're totally different beasts. A drow has 'magic like' abilities. A faerie is born with an understanding and control over magic. There's no such thing as a faerie that can't cast spells.]) + strength that isn't as low as an elf's + even greater speed and intelligence + agelessness (meaning they can train for hundreds or thousands of years). In Celtic mythology they were viewed as gods... and that's where they're from.

It SAID right there!

[Forever Zero]

But I assumed some sort of short range flight. I assumed they could fly around a room, but traveled on land for the most part over long distances. I didn't think they traveled EVERYWHERE by flying...