The Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[Archbio]

Nowhere, in either of these posts ,have I quoted the Bible. Nowhere have I used anything but examples from the real world.

That should be your first clue that what you said doesn't really have to do with the "fundie view of sex" but rather with some point in the planet-wide middle ground between what you present as "free sex" and the "fundie view of sex".

I think that what Fifthfiend was driving at is that safe-sex is now a much closer possibility that in times past, and it has no necesary link to religion, but I doubt that what Fifthfiend implied about ancient religion and sex is accurate.

[Azisien]

But 42, his counterargument was reasoned. It's actually quite valid, whereas I see you as the one whose simply trying to pooh-pooh his argument.


Firstly, I don't see rape and sex as the same thing, and I don't see why anyone else should either. One involves consent, the other does not. Sure, with a larger society it's easier to commit rape, but I view that as a drawback of...well, a larger society, one that has to be accounted for like many other inevitabilities. Though if you can draw a clearer link between rape and sex, by all means I'm willing to understand.

Second, the spread of STDs is twofold. Part of it is carelessness, yes. I agree, actually, I imagine a great deal of the STD problems in the West are carelessness, because education and contraceptives are more availible here. I don't know the stats, but correct me if I'm wrong, the true HIV epidemic is in Africa, where sex education can come at a premium and religion often bars the use of contraceptives, or they're just not availible, allowing the disease to spread like wildfire.

Abortion, I'm not so sure I feel like touching on that one. Slippery slopes huzzah. I will say, at least in Canada (and I imagine the situation can't be much different in the US), the majority of abortions are very early on, and although I admit my knowledge of abortion procedure is a bit sketchy, I'm not sure labelling all one million plus US abortions as terribly invasive. In Canada, about 2% of abortions occur in the third trimester, the vast, vast majority occur probably not long after the fetus is even visible. Obviously, if you reject abortion outright, there's nothing I can really say to dissuade you.

[42PETUNIAS]

Originally Posted by Ryanderman

Nowhere, in either of these posts ,have I quoted the Bible. Nowhere have I used anything but examples from the real world. Not once did I tell you what God says.

You stated the common religious opinion. You did not show the path of logic that led to those beliefs, so I said that you had not supported your statements with reason and logic.

[Elminster_Amaur]

The issue that the Catholic church HAD against abortion (the current issue is just a matter of being stuck in tradition) was the soul of the child. Up until fairly recently in the history of the Catholic church, they viewed abortion as perfectly acceptable, as long as it occured before the fetus reached human shape (supposedly, that's when the soul forms, so killing it before-hand is like slaughtering an animal you can't afford to keep and would die without you). Then (I don't remember when, exactly), someone says to the Catholic church, hey, the fetus is completely formed from conception. The Catholic church, not having science to draw upon, took that as fact and decided that the fetus would have a soul starting from conception. Once they found out that they were wrong, they got obstinant and decided that the Papal decree was above the truth (and above God, apparently) and stuck to the whole "fetus is a fully formed human" idea, calling any form contraception evil because it prevents humans with souls from having life.

[ZAKtheGeek]

Honestly, people, try to make sense. Ryanderman's arguments were:
-spreads STD's
-destroys families
-leads to abortions

[Archbio]

Honestly, people, try to make sense. Ryanderman's arguments were:
-spreads STD's
-destroys families
-leads to abortions

Again, this doesn't point to a "fundie view of sex" (however Ryanderman cares to define it) as a solution and doesn't equate with all of the "modern view of sex" as the cause. Ryanderman also threw in rape for an unspecified reason.

These aren't arguments. Neither is your superfluous recap.

[Edit for the less perceptive]

Yes, "total abstinence" prevents two out of three (excepted for rape, of course), but Ryanderman claimed that they didn't endorse the "abolition of sex", so again that leaves contraception as the only other preventive measure against abortion, condoms and/or care in choosing sexual partner (which doesn't automatically correlate with monogamy which doesn't automatically correlate with religion) as preventive measures against STDs.

As for families being destroyed, well, families can very well destroy themselves without any sex at all and some families do survive "free sex", so again I don't see where this is supposed to point toward religion except in the most superficial reading possible.

No argument: simply a false dichotomy meant to be powered by scarecrows.

[Ryanderman]

Again, it doesn't matter. I wasn't trying to argue my point. I was not trying to make anyone see my view as vaild. I frankly don't give a damn if you think my view is valid. I've stayed out of this thread most of the time, because I don't see much of an effort from anyone to actually understand each other's view point. It's a lot of, "I rely soley on Science, so since your view point is not scientific, it's wrong." and "That's not really logic so I dismiss your arguement, try another" and "I have faith and you won't change my mind, so there." So I don't really care if you agree with my viewpoint, and nothing I said in any of my posts was an arguement for my viewpoint.
I said what I said to counter fifthfiend's inflamitory post. That is all. Don't bother jumping at what I said to try to disect it and counter everything I said. There's nothing to discet.

Oh, and I threw in rape, because it seems to me that in general, an increase in sexual openness has led to an increase in sex related crimes. Not that it matters in the context of what I was trying to say.

EDIT: what's so hard about this. I'm not trying to prove anything, or "point to religion." It's really quite simple. I'm a Christian fundamentalist. I hold certain beliefs. Fifthfiend called those beliefs "retarded and insane" and threw up an empty illustration of his point. I countered by stating my views the way he stated his in an attempt to throw into light the ridiculousness of what he said. Obviously I failed. The fault is mine I suppose. I didn't think I'd have to explain myself this much. You're finding holes and strawmen all through my arguement, because there never was a real arguement in the first place. Congrats!

[Elminster_Amaur]

Originally Posted by Zak

Honestly, people, try to make sense.

I hope that doesn't referr to me, because I was responding to:

Originally Posted by Ryanderman, on abortion

It's also killed over 1 million people every year.

And about this:

Originally Posted by Ryanderman

Oh, and I threw in rape, because it seems to me that in general, an increase in sexual openness has led to an increase in sex related crimes. Not that it matters in the context of what I was trying to say.

What? No, no, no. An increase in sexual openness has led to an increase in KNOWLEDGE about crimes that would have been committed anyway. That is, if you're taking the 1900s as an example for your statement. Before then, there's no possible way of knowing anything about it, because either people weren't supposed to talk about it in public, or (just before THAT age) history was not recorded in any way that could possibly resemble objective OR honest.

Edit: To be fair, it [history] still isn't recorded objectively or honestly, except (and this is only occassionally) in purely academic circles. I mean, they're [historians and news reporters] getting closer, but there's still massive slanting, and I believe that there almost always will be, at least as long as someone can profit from skewing the truth.

[Archbio]

because there never was a real arguement in the first place

That sounds about right.

[Azisien]

Originally Posted by Ryanderman

Again, it doesn't matter. I wasn't trying to argue my point. I was not trying to make anyone see my view as vaild. I frankly don't give a damn if you think my view is valid. I've stayed out of this thread most of the time, because I don't see much of an effort from anyone to actually understand each other's view point. It's a lot of, "I rely soley on Science, so since your view point is not scientific, it's wrong." and "That's not really logic so I dismiss your arguement, try another" and "I have faith and you won't change my mind, so there." So I don't really care if you agree with my viewpoint, and nothing I said in any of my posts was an arguement for my viewpoint.
I said what I said to counter fifthfiend's inflamitory post. That is all. Don't bother jumping at what I said to try to disect it and counter everything I said. There's nothing to discet.

Oh, and I threw in rape, because it seems to me that in general, an increase in sexual openness has led to an increase in sex related crimes. Not that it matters in the context of what I was trying to say.

EDIT: what's so hard about this. I'm not trying to prove anything, or "point to religion." It's really quite simple. I'm a Christian fundamentalist. I hold certain beliefs. Fifthfiend called those beliefs "retarded and insane" and threw up an empty illustration of his point. I countered by stating my views the way he stated his in an attempt to throw into light the ridiculousness of what he said. Obviously I failed. The fault is mine I suppose. I didn't think I'd have to explain myself this much. You're finding holes and strawmen all through my arguement, because there never was a real arguement in the first place. Congrats!

Apologies, for a second there I thought you were posting in the Discussion forum to discuss. Boy, where could we have gone wrong there.

To think, we might have to actually explain things, which in itself is a scary thought.