Another Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[Fifthfiend]

I'm not trying to sound more flamey than necessary, but I do hope you realize why the above is impossible to take seriously.

Mostly in that you're not even saying whichever incredible thing it is that leads you to conclude whatever you're concluding. I mean if you're going to say "I believe Qi is real because [intentionally left blank]" I can't really take much away from that one way or another.

For what it's worth, and not to belittle your experience or anything --

There are certain effects that students of internal martial arts look at to see if they've had "progress" in their practice, and these effects are often described differently, and are quite commonly called "indescribable". It's not that it's not possible to describe the experience, it's just that any description will never do it justice. Common effects are "heat" or "cold" in various body parts, "ants" or "crawling" sensations, a feeling of "disembodiment", body parts "growing" in feeling, etc.

I dislike these, because they are distracting. I routinely have what we call "Cosmic Showers", merely because I feel like cleansing myself. To describe it myself, I'd say it's like...qi is raining, but inside you. It is a glorious feeling, that leaves me feeling refreshed and invigorated. However, the feeling is, again, a mere experience that I don't like to fixate on. Instead, the fact that I've become healthier than I've ever been, haven't had an illness in over a year, and enjoy far more mental clarity than I had when I first started my practice is why I continue.

-- I get all that stuff from plain-old exercising.

[TheSpacePope]

I dislike these, because they are distracting. I routinely have what we call "Cosmic Showers", merely because I feel like cleansing myself. To describe it myself, I'd say it's like...qi is raining, but inside you. It is a glorious feeling, that leaves me feeling refreshed and invigorated. However, the feeling is, again, a mere experience that I don't like to fixate on. Instead, the fact that I've become healthier than I've ever been, haven't had an illness in over a year, and enjoy far more mental clarity than I had when I first started my practice is why I continue. However, this isn't the crazy part that I doubt you'll believe.

Every time I have a spiritual/intellectual epiphany, it physically rains. It's a warm light rain that lasts for (average of) 10 minutes. It's immensely perplexing, yet it happens all the time.
It even did so once in december.
My point is, strange unexplained things happen near constantly.


I can't explain that with any greater degree of accuracy than you can explain qi. (although I want to know what happens when you get out of your horse stance.)

Also, I think that the bible is a fine place to look for morals, especially if you take your morals from the sermon on the mount(which I do). This sermon promotes brotherhood, kindness, compassion, and oneness with your fellow man.

[Serenity]

Originally Posted by TheSpacePope

Also, I think that the bible is a fine place to look for morals, especially if you take your morals from the sermon on the mount(which I do). This sermon promotes brotherhood, kindness, compassion, and oneness with your fellow man.

It also promotes not doing anything to make your life better because you'll be rewarded for going through shit now when you get to heaven (Matthew 5:11-12), the total obedience to the old Law (Matthew 5:17-19), the idea of thought crime (Matthew 5:22), and even not worrying about having food to eat (Matthew 6:25, again in Matthew 6:31)!

[TheSpacePope]

It also promotes not doing anything to make your life better because you'll be rewarded for going through shit now when you get to heaven (Matthew 5:11-12), the total obedience to the old Law (Matthew 5:17-19), the idea of thought crime (Matthew 5:22), and even not worrying about having food to eat (Matthew 6:25, again in Matthew 6:31)!

Logical fallacies in the bible do not preclude any of the good ideas.
They do however give endless fodder for people like you to tear apart.

Look at a sexual harrasment video from 50 years ago....
Oh wait..

Ideas change, and what was acceptable in one century, logically will not be in the next.

It also promotes not doing anything to make your life better because you'll be rewarded for going through shit now when you get to heaven (Matthew 5:11-12),

That is what you said it says

11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

This is what it actually says.
This is tantamount to "sticks and stones may break my bones," it says absoulutely nothing about not making your life better.
You misrepresent what they were trying to say.

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The bolded: this is jesus saying that he has not come to change our way of life, but to make it better.
The italics: This is him reiterating that he is not here to change the ways of man.

the underlined: Notice that he does not say that you are eternally dammed for breaking these commandments, you are simply the least in heaven, which to me says that you are still in heaven, but your stature is reduced.

25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?

More of a forewarning against gluttony and vanity I'd say. It does not tell you not to eat, just not to worry.
Same deal here.

31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'

So all of the passages that you quoted were not negative, yet turned so by your subjective interpretation.

Interpretation is the key here, and I think that you are missing the point of the bible. The bible is a parable on how to live, not a literal guide. Keep that in mind.

[Fifthfiend]

Incidentally --

Originally Posted by ZAKtheGeek

I'm still having trouble (read: what the hell are you talking about) imagining some sort of strong gut feeling that indicates to you that there's a god as anything better than, "I really really want there to be a god."

Originally Posted by POS Industries

I'd put the idea at the same subjective perception line as "I really want this hamburger to taste good". Can you prove that the hamburger is delicious without subjective analysis? No, it's just a feeling you have when you eat the burger.

-- How is the existence of God subjective?

Also:

Originally Posted by POS Industries

I wouldn't go so far as to suggest it's the existence of a deity, but I wouldn't go so far as to suggest it's not, either.

I never suggested it wasn't.

[BitVyper]

....and can't prove to you without being in the same room as you.

How WOULD you prove it to me if we were in the same room?

[TheSpacePope]

-- How is the existence of God subjective?

The existence is not subjective, that is either true or false, but how one feels a connection to said deity is subjective, at least that is what I got from his statement.

As a matter of fact, I'd toss all written works about deities into the subjective pile because, even if divinely inspired, it is still colored by the human author, so all of their personal fears and dislikes would eventually be written about, and possibly villified. I.e., Homosexuality, abortion, drinking, dancing, whatever your sin de' jour is really.

How WOULD you prove it to me if we were in the same room?

The same way the ancient peoples did it. Drug the hell out of you with hallucinogens and you'd see God eventually.
I'm quite sure.

[Demetrius]

I'd like to throw out a new stance to argue from; GOD exists. Prove to me that he doesn't.

Spare me any silly jabs you would have at supposing that this is true and prove to me that it is not.

[TheSpacePope]

I'd like to throw out a new stance to argue from; GOD exists. Prove to me that he doesn't.

No pictures and no appearances in the last 1900 years notwithstanding?
I'd have to go with, no physical evidence, no empirical evidence of any kind really. You get me a hair sample from the divine, and I will get back to you on that.

That is as hard of a sell as proving that he does exist.
If we cannot prove that the spiritual parts of ourselves do or do not exist, then an entirely spiritual being, with perhaps no matter( that we can detect) in his/her/its makeup, is impossible to prove one way or another.

besides, HE said that he would not prove his existance, because proof denies faith and without faith He is nothing.

[Elminster_Amaur]

How WOULD you prove it to me if we were in the same room?

I can lead you to experience it by showing you how it's done.