Scientology sees flood of former members speak out. - Page 7

bluestarultor · 11-02-2009, 08:54 PM

Yeah, Funka? Military is a mite different. You keep talking like cults are easy to leave. It's more like "welcome to Hotel California." Once you're in, with some, there is never a way out until you die, because they will follow and hound you, and some might even take care of it personally. Scientology isn't quite that bad, but when you leave, you've likely had no outside support for years, your bank is likely broken, and you have to live in constant silence for fear of them suing you to remove the entirety of your remaining wealth for years, having your house broken into and vandalized, and even getting shot at in front of your own home.

Think of that. It would be like if you left the military and then had to run and hide for fear they'd sue you or even idly send in troops just to mess up your shit or even quietly execute you. Oh, and they might even be your friends and family. Unless they left with you. Then all you have to worry about is leaving them alone where they could get hurt or killed without you to protect them. But at least you can all share in being watched constantly and living penniless.

Mesden · 11-02-2009, 09:04 PM

Aaaaaaaaaaanyhow, I've said my piece. I think you're way too harsh on those who find themselves in a cult (not just specific to scientology, either), and don't honestly have the right to criticize it (nor do most people). There's merit in the few who came out to speak against the church to expose the wrongdoings, especially at the risk of their selves.

Funka Genocide · 11-02-2009, 09:08 PM

Well I'm looking from a purely secular, logical (in the context of what is readily observable to someone with an American High School education) perspective.

You're the one that made this something personal, as though I'm trying to assert my superiority over lesser beings, as though that's an important facet of this conversation. I don't need to do that, as relative station in life is subjective in these circumstances, so it really has very little effect on the discussion if I believe myself superior in some way to people that allow themselves to be taken in by a cult.

The only real measurement that could be considered remotely analytical would be relative levels of "success" as defined in any number of ways with reference to modern society. Mental health, monetary wealth, take your pick. The outcome will be inconclusive, there's no way to make a discussion like this less subjective so really what we have here is a case of "well you can't prove anything so shut up!"

But really, do I have to prove that scientology is a scam? That these so called victims were pretty high up in the chain, meaning that through their direct efforts OTHERS were brought into the abusive fold, meaning that by their efforts they subjugated others to the same delusion to support their own, obviously twisted worldview?

Do I have to point out that you're arguing on behalf of a pyramid scam disguised as a cult disguised as a religion?

None of which are good things, mind you.

Or do I have to defend my own life piece by piece because you've engineered some sort of contradiction given the limited information I've posted?

Or do I just reiterate what I've said and let you go on raging about how much of an asshole I am?

Yeah, all humans have moments of weakness. We all fall short of our ideals and have moral lapses. But most of us base our morals on something concrete, or as concrete as a social construct can be. We look at the world and other people and we decided, based on our cultures, in what manner best to act.

Some people wish to embrace a divergent moral outlook in hopes of finding some form of fulfillment unbeknownst to others, if anything THEY'RE the ones with a superiority complex, one which is entirely illogical and unfounded. They think they've figured out the penultimate question to human existence, with what? Science fiction or ancient myhtology, take your pick. What you have is people who refuse to see reality, who are willfully ignorant and OH! well some of them had a change of heart so lets demonize the evil figurehead who hurt them and let them know it's not their fault.

My whole point is not to prove I'm some kind of superior life form (more in line with scientology again) but to point out a serious failing in modern society, an inability for people to clean up their own shit. The fact that I'm not tearing up over these cowards sob stories doesn't impact the fact that they deluded themselves and bolstered the delusions of others because of their own weakness, a weakness we all share as humans and yet some of us manage just fine without a fairy tale ending or beginning.

MasterOfMagic · 11-02-2009, 09:19 PM

Quote:

But really, do I have to prove that scientology is a scam? That these so called victims were pretty high up in the chain, meaning that through their direct efforts OTHERS were brought into the abusive fold, meaning that by their efforts they subjugated others to the same delusion to support their own, obviously twisted worldview?

Do I have to point out that you're arguing on behalf of a pyramid scam disguised as a cult disguised as a religion?

How? Who are you talking to when you say this?

Quote:

Some people wish to embrace a divergent moral outlook in hopes of finding some form of fulfillment unbeknownst to others, if anything THEY'RE the ones with a superiority complex, one which is entirely illogical and unfounded. They think they've figured out the penultimate question to human existence, with what? Science fiction or ancient myhtology, take your pick.

Fighting fire with fire is a horrible methodology. Fight it with reason, not spite.

Quote:

What you have is people who refuse to see reality, who are willfully ignorant and OH! well some of them had a change of heart so lets demonize the evil figurehead who hurt them and let them know it's not their fault.

They made a mistake, but this, again, does not mean we should scoff at their ability to break away, or ignore the thing that did this to them when given the opportunity. Or try to prevent it from doing it to others in a bad position in the future.

Funka Genocide · 11-02-2009, 09:23 PM

It occurs to me that I'm the only providing any real substance to this thread, and the majority of others input is people attempting to take apart my statements. Kind of makes me feel like I'm the only one who has any real conviction in my ideals, which kind of makes this a pointless conversation, if you catch my drift.

MasterOfMagic · 11-02-2009, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funka Genocide

It occurs to me that I'm the only providing any real substance to this thread, and the majority of others input is people attempting to take apart my statements. Kind of makes me feel like I'm the only one who has any real conviction in my ideals, which kind of makes this a pointless conversation, if you catch my drift.

We are not reading the same thread. I get that your trying to rail against a flaw in humanity, to say that we should not be sheep and think. That's fine. But the way you are doing it is terrible. The ends do not justify the means. Your reasons for reaching a conclusion are just as important as the conclusion itself.

Funka Genocide · 11-02-2009, 09:25 PM

count how many posts are quoting something I said...

yeah

MasterOfMagic · 11-02-2009, 09:26 PM

Replying to the points the opposite side makes is a necessary in a discussion of any kind. Throwing ideas at each other with no reference would be as pointless to me as you seem to think this thread is now.

Krylo · 11-02-2009, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funka Genocide

count how many posts are quoting something I said...

yeah

Having a lot of people arguing against you usually means exactly the opposite of what you seem to think it means.

Funka Genocide · 11-02-2009, 09:31 PM

well I assume it means they disagree with me Jared. That's a logical assumption right?

Now that could mean that I'm wrong, but on a topic like this its very hard to delineate apparently. I felt my statements were pretty self evident, but I'm under the assumption that most believe that people are powerless to resist the sirens call of Scientology, and should be lauded for their efforts at escaping.

OK. I understand your thoughts on the matter and respectfully disagree. I've all ready stated why. So I guess my piece has been said and I have no further need to continue posting in this thread.

rock on dudes

11-02-2009, 09:04 PM	#62
Mesden There is no Toph, only Melon Lord! Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Inside of a box inside of a smaller box Posts: 4,310	Aaaaaaaaaaanyhow, I've said my piece. I think you're way too harsh on those who find themselves in a cult (not just specific to scientology, either), and don't honestly have the right to criticize it (nor do most people). There's merit in the few who came out to speak against the church to expose the wrongdoings, especially at the risk of their selves. __________________ I can tell you're lying.

11-02-2009, 09:08 PM	#63
Funka Genocide Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,566	Well I'm looking from a purely secular, logical (in the context of what is readily observable to someone with an American High School education) perspective. You're the one that made this something personal, as though I'm trying to assert my superiority over lesser beings, as though that's an important facet of this conversation. I don't need to do that, as relative station in life is subjective in these circumstances, so it really has very little effect on the discussion if I believe myself superior in some way to people that allow themselves to be taken in by a cult. The only real measurement that could be considered remotely analytical would be relative levels of "success" as defined in any number of ways with reference to modern society. Mental health, monetary wealth, take your pick. The outcome will be inconclusive, there's no way to make a discussion like this less subjective so really what we have here is a case of "well you can't prove anything so shut up!" But really, do I have to prove that scientology is a scam? That these so called victims were pretty high up in the chain, meaning that through their direct efforts OTHERS were brought into the abusive fold, meaning that by their efforts they subjugated others to the same delusion to support their own, obviously twisted worldview? Do I have to point out that you're arguing on behalf of a pyramid scam disguised as a cult disguised as a religion? None of which are good things, mind you. Or do I have to defend my own life piece by piece because you've engineered some sort of contradiction given the limited information I've posted? Or do I just reiterate what I've said and let you go on raging about how much of an asshole I am? Yeah, all humans have moments of weakness. We all fall short of our ideals and have moral lapses. But most of us base our morals on something concrete, or as concrete as a social construct can be. We look at the world and other people and we decided, based on our cultures, in what manner best to act. Some people wish to embrace a divergent moral outlook in hopes of finding some form of fulfillment unbeknownst to others, if anything THEY'RE the ones with a superiority complex, one which is entirely illogical and unfounded. They think they've figured out the penultimate question to human existence, with what? Science fiction or ancient myhtology, take your pick. What you have is people who refuse to see reality, who are willfully ignorant and OH! well some of them had a change of heart so lets demonize the evil figurehead who hurt them and let them know it's not their fault. My whole point is not to prove I'm some kind of superior life form (more in line with scientology again) but to point out a serious failing in modern society, an inability for people to clean up their own shit. The fact that I'm not tearing up over these cowards sob stories doesn't impact the fact that they deluded themselves and bolstered the delusions of others because of their own weakness, a weakness we all share as humans and yet some of us manage just fine without a fairy tale ending or beginning.

11-02-2009, 09:23 PM	#65
Funka Genocide Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,566	It occurs to me that I'm the only providing any real substance to this thread, and the majority of others input is people attempting to take apart my statements. Kind of makes me feel like I'm the only one who has any real conviction in my ideals, which kind of makes this a pointless conversation, if you catch my drift.

11-02-2009, 09:25 PM	#67
Funka Genocide Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,566	count how many posts are quoting something I said... yeah

11-02-2009, 09:26 PM	#68
MasterOfMagic ahahah Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 3,456	Replying to the points the opposite side makes is a necessary in a discussion of any kind. Throwing ideas at each other with no reference would be as pointless to me as you seem to think this thread is now.

11-02-2009, 09:31 PM	#70
Funka Genocide Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,566	well I assume it means they disagree with me Jared. That's a logical assumption right? Now that could mean that I'm wrong, but on a topic like this its very hard to delineate apparently. I felt my statements were pretty self evident, but I'm under the assumption that most believe that people are powerless to resist the sirens call of Scientology, and should be lauded for their efforts at escaping. OK. I understand your thoughts on the matter and respectfully disagree. I've all ready stated why. So I guess my piece has been said and I have no further need to continue posting in this thread. rock on dudes