Pokemon Umbral Theatre 2: Devoted to That She-Devil, Charlotte Beaufort

[Menarker]

Ok... To elaborate on moves a bit for Intergrated Combat Training.

2 moves from one of its type.

6 moves from another of its type. (Two of them are practically effectless)

6 moves from level up that are not the same as the above.

8 moves from the 3 types with extra moves.

8 other moves: 1 each from their respective element.

Does not have access to 4 elements (Ruin being one of them)

[Geminex]

I appreciate what you're doing. I'm just saying "don't work harder than you have to, even if you feel motivated to do so". Because I'm physically unable to support you in other ways like massaging your shoulders or giving you a footrub or fixing you some homemade buttermilk buscuits, creepiness factor be damned.

I'm currently trying to do what I asked your permission for in that last conversation we had.
And I'm succeeding. Sorta.

Balancing this is kid's stuff, compared to that.

I guess you're right, though. We should balance it one level at a time (though since our abilities are gonna synergize like hell, and what we get today depends on what we're allowed to get tomorrow, so we should keep an eye out for the future).

Ok...
Menarker, no offense, but I really think that anything that gives you access to more than 8 elements is too much, unless you sacrifice more than one level for it.

And did you actually write that you meant for STAB to stack? That is... not good.

And well, the goal is that in three weeks' time I'll have finished all the negotiations and all the balancing. That's why I may be doing a bit more that is necessary now, and, admittedly, neglecting the actual RP thread.

[Menarker]

Well, I can't think of what to do with the two different STAB bonuses. Unless you wouldn't mind that the STAB bonus converts into a bonus of a different kind like extra large crit chance or extra effects on moves that I would get STAB on. So basically, damage bonus would max out at 2.0 but extra bonuses of a different type would apply to STAB moves (or maybe just the ones with double STAB)

As for upgrades, I would be willing to give up Sweep for sure. Dunno what much else, although looking at it, I'd be willing to cut down "extra moves" due to 2 moves each instead of 3 moves each. That would take two more moves off.

Anyhow, I'm not planning on getting Breeder 1 for some time, so I guess I can put the upgrades for that specific level on the side since AB says Domination and Snagging is not going to be a very present threat.

[Geminex]

No, I'm saying I don't think that pokebrid STAB should apply in any way at all. The ability to paradigm shift, plus your Integrated Combat Training seem sufficient. I mean, yes, level 1 pokebrids usually get STAB, but we're just basing our upgrades on what already exists. And what's paramount is to keep equality, more than remaining true to the template.

And right now, I think what you're getting is already sufficient for "equality" to remain.

[Menarker]

Maybe make it so Pokebrid stat counts like Slayer STAB but not stack or anything at all?

Like if the pokemon has 2 types, then someone with the standard 4 armors has 6 types for STAB? But wearing armor the same type as the pokemon won't do anything unless they REALLY need that protection from that type.

Example being Ghost type wearing Ghost armor or Dragon type with Dragon Armor because otherwise, Ghost hitting Ghost or Dragon against Dragon would be bad.

[Geminex]

Yeah, that's might work. Or at least I think it might. If you're saying that, say, our Mamoswine pokebrid, wearing Fighting, Grass and Rock armor would have 2x STAB for Fighting, Grass, Rock and Normal moves and 1.5x STAB for Ground and Ice, yeah.

Though like I said... I think we're going beyond what you should get for one level. All the stuff you want, I think it'd work if you spread it across two... But I don't see it all fitting in one, unless you make this your "superpowered" level, and I had a feeling you wanted to save that for his Shock Trooper training.

[Dracorion]

I think you should all just be glad that Elizabeth isn't any kind of psychic, so she can't get Domination.

[Menarker]

Originally Posted by Geminex

Yeah, that's might work. Or at least I think it might. If you're saying that, say, our Mamoswine pokebrid, wearing Fighting, Grass and Rock armor would have 2x STAB for Fighting, Grass, Rock and Normal moves and 1.5x STAB for Ground and Ice, yeah.

Not quite. Using your example, the Mamoswine pokebrid wearing those same armor gets 2x STAB as well as 2.0 STAB for Ground and Ice. Lot less potential confusion and mixup.


Anyhow, I'm editing my proposed set-up a bit. Spreading things out a bit hopefully, although that level 1 slayer would still be the same, since armor, it's fighting ability, and the altered stats as a pokebrid can't really be seperated.

EDIT: Maybe it'd help a bit if I moved the Shock Trooper thing a level later? I know it's on the same level as the RDPA, but that means the strength gain comes a level later.


EDIT: Posting my thing here so i don't keep switching back and forth.


Already Earned
Pokemon Trainer (Level 1)

- Four Pokemon are available.
- Leader Pokemon is available. Leader Pokemon can know six moves instead of four.

-----
Pokemon Trainer (Level 2)

- Fifth Pokemon is available.
- Can now use Focus skill. Attack that hits two targets or a random target can now hit a single designated target. Costs 25 Rage.
- 1st Trainer Action. A low power technique which the trainer uses to support his pokemons.
-----
Pokemon Trainer (Level 3)

- A 2nd Leader Pokemon is available.
- Divide skill is available. Allows a single hit attack to hit multiple foes without suffering damage loss or side/stat effect loss. Costs 25 Rage.

-----
Pokemon Trainer (Level 4)

- Sixth Pokemon is available.
- Two Custom Hold Items are available.
- 2nd trainer action


Level 5 onwardsLevel 5 Onwards
-----
Pokebrid (Level 1)

- Choose one non-legendary and non-ruin type pokemon. Can use any and all moves of the chosen Pokemon form and its pre-evolutions if any. Stats are influenced according to form.
- 1st Pokebrid Action.
- Can use Paradigm Shift (transform into that Pokemon). Lasts for turn used. Type weaknesses no longer apply and Pokemon statistics are added to inherent statistics for a stat boost during those turns. Costs 20 rage. Maximum of three use per battle.

-----
Pokemon Trainer (Level 5)

- 1st Xth Stage/Veteran upgrade is now available. Legendary Pokemon do not evolve, but can be Veterans.
- 1st custom move availability.

-----
Pokemon Breeder (Level 1)

- Base Rage generated goes from 5 to 7.
- 1st Ability Shift is available.
- 3rd trainer action.
*Still thinking of what ability goes here*

- Renny's Pokemon can only be snagged at a 50% chance if the pokemon is SEVERELY injured regardless of the snag ball used. (As if the snagger was level 1)
- If dominated or otherwise be made disobedient or charmed to fight against Renny's side or in favor of the enemy, they WILL NOT target Renny or attack in a way that Renny will be in the crossfire such as with AOE moves. In addition Renny can spend an action at 80% chance to bring them to normal.



Slayer (Level 1)

- Default Normal type armor. 50% damage reduction from Normal Type attacks.
- Can possess a loadout of three armor aside from the default normal type armor.
- Can switch these equipment loadouts completely in between battles, but can request them from Daphne to switch them out one-by-one.
- Intergrated Combat Training (See Conditional Upgrades in section below)
- Altered Stats as a Pokebrid.

- Armor:
Reinforced Vest (Normal -50%, Always Equipped)
Pesticide Layer (Bug -50%, Evasion Debuff Immunity)
Shadow Suit (Dark -50%, Flinch Immunity)
Courage Emblem (Dragon -50%, SpDef Debuff Immunity)
Insulated Armor (Electric -50%, Paralyze Immunity)
Impact Gear (Fighting -50%, Def Debuff Immunity)
FR Suit (Fire -50%, Burn Immunity)
Windbreaker (Flying -50%, Crit Immunity)
Holy Talisman (Ghost -50%, Death Immunity)
Herbicide Layer (Grass -50%, Drain Immunity)
Jump Boots (Ground -50%, Acc Debuff Immunity)
Counter Injector (Poison -50%, Poison Immunity)
Brain Case (Psychic -50%, Confuse Immunity)
Thermal Underwear (Ice -50%, Freeze Immunity)
Sonic Guard (Rock -50%, Att Debuff Immunity)
Platemail (Steel -50%, Bleed Immunity)
Weather Cloak (Water -50%, Sleep Immunity)

-----
Slayer (Level 2)
- Armor Guardian Globe (Ruin type Defense) is available.
- Slayers can now equip one of the Accessories AB made/makes. Each use costs 30 rage.

*In progress as AB is still editing/making accessories*

-----
Slayer (Level 3)

- Slayer Attacks have minimal base power of 130.
- Can wear a second accessory.

-----
Slayer (Level 4)

- All Slayers also gain Armor Affinity. What this means is that if a weapon they use deals the same type of damage as a piece of armor they have equipped protects against, they get a STAB modifier. This STAB modifier is double as opposed the 1.5 used by Trainers and Snaggers.
- Pokebrid STAB also becomes 2.0 but does not stack with armor.


-----
Slayer (Level 5)

- Slayers now have access to the Rapid Deployable Powered Armor, or RDPA. PCs and NPCs can create custom armors that possess five attack types, five defense types, and one Overdrive. Like a Paradigm Shift, but doesn't cost Rage. Lasts for three turns.
- Shock Trooper classification *See Conditional Upgrades below*
-----
Overblade (Level 1)

- Base Rage generated is increased by 1.5 times (to 15 rage for slayer attack).
- Overblades can use the Overpower skill to remove status effects. 15 Rage cost.
- Can wear a third accessory.
-----
Overblade (Level 2)

- Choose 4 stats. Those chosen stats gain 10 points.
- Overblades gain a special immunity to a physical-type status effect (Poison, Bad Poison, Paralyze, Freeze, Burn, Fire, Bleeding, Exhaustion)

-----
Overblade (Level 3)

- Choose 4 stats. Those chosen stats gain 15 points.
- Overblades gain an immunity to one of the following Pokemon types (Bug, Dark, Fighting, Flying, Grass, Ground, Normal, Rock, Steel). If Normal is selected, then a fourth armor can be worn to replace the default armor.
- Improved Mobility Armor: RDPA usage can be split multiple times, so it can be used for 3 turns worth, in segments of 1 turn. In addition, using an Overdrive on the first or second use doesn’t deplete the other usages as well.





Conditional UpgradesConditional Upgrades

1) Upon getting 1 level of Pokebrid and 1 level of Slayer, Renny gains Intergrated Combat Training.

Intergrated Combat Training enables pokebrid moves to be used in place of Slayer weapons for all attacks, whether basic attack or sweeps or even RDPAs. The moves are pumped up to have the same power that Slayer Weapons have. The few moves that have stronger base power keep their original power level. The rules are as follows:
A) Unlimited Slayer empowered moves belonging to the respective pokebrid's type/s.
B) Unlimited Slayer empowered moves to moves learned by level-up. This Doesn't apply to moves that can only be gained by breeding, tutoring or so.
C) Extra moves for 3 other types. Each of those types enable 2 empowered moves.
D) All other element types only get 1 attack. If the pokebrid does not have an attack of a certain element, that attack type is unavailable and only accessible by RDPA if chosen.
E) All the above only applies to moves with Attack subtype, not Special Attack. (Status moves don't need buffing anyhow)
F) All the moves that fit the above count as Slayer attacks and thus qualify for any upgrades or factors that influence them such as base power, slayer armor STAB bonus and rage generation and anything else Slayer Related.


2) Upon getting 4 levels of Slayer and 4 levels of Trainer, Renny gains Shock Trooper classification.

Shock Trooper classification allows Renny to fight alongside his pokemons, with the three (2 pokemons and Renny) being able to attack on the same turn with no penalty.




AB: Not to try to be any sort of pest, but do you have any suggestions for what you would find permissible for new accessories? If you don't already have some made up already?

[Geminex]

Renny's upgrades as I would balance themLevel 5 Onwards
-----
Pokebrid (Level 1)

- Choose one non-legendary and non-ruin type pokemon. Can use any and all moves of the chosen Pokemon form and its pre-evolutions if any.
- Stats are(Chosen pokemon's stats+Slayer Stats)/2
- 1st Pokebrid Action.
- Can use Paradigm Shift (transform into that Pokemon). Lasts for 3 turns. Type weaknesses no longer apply and Pokemon statistics are added to inherent statistics for a stat boost during those turns. (I really don't think paradigm shift should be changed. 60 rage for three turns is fine, considering that we've already modified sync-techs). No I don't care about you not getting any rage for 3 turns, don't get pokebrid if you don't think it'll help you. Choose a different class. Don't modify the system.
- Character generates 10 rage per attack (or when getting attacked)
- Can deploy self and one pokemon, or two pokemon.
Gets 1.5 times STAB for attacks

And honestly, I'm really not sure about this. You're getting way more versatility, plus a pretty good rage boost. More attack as well, arguably. Though no sync-tech.
-----
Pokemon Trainer (Level 5)

- 1st Xth Stage/Veteran upgrade is now available. Legendary Pokemon do not evolve, but can be Veterans.
- 1st custom move availability. (Strength of custom move?)

-----
Pokemon Breeder (Level 1)

- Base Rage generated (by pokemon attacks) goes from 5 to 7.
- 1st Ability Shift is available.
- 3rd trainer action.
*Still thinking of what ability goes here*

- Renny's Pokemon can only be snagged at a 50% chance if the pokemon is SEVERELY injured (At 1/4 of standard HP, say? I don't think we should go lower) regardless of the snag ball used. (As if the snagger was level 1)
- If dominated or otherwise be made disobedient or charmed to fight against Renny's side or in favor of the enemy, they WILL NOT target Renny or attack in a way that Renny will be in the crossfire such as with AOE moves. In addition Renny can spend an action at 80% chance to bring them to normal.

Again, this is fine, I guess. But it's at the upper limit, and that's the second level to be so. Then again, that depends on the power of ability shift. What will that do, exactly? Did we agree on something? I don't think we did. What were you envisioning?


Slayer (Level 1)

- Default Normal type armor. 50% damage reduction from Normal Type attacks.
- Can possess a loadout of three armor aside from the default normal type armor.
- Can switch these equipment loadouts completely in between battles, but can request them from Daphne to switch them out one-by-one.
- Intergrated Combat Training
Here I have my problem. Combat training is sort of acceptable, I guess, it's certainly creative, and I like the thought in itself...
But Slayers have as much attack power as they do, because they have a limited variety of attacks to use it with. You're sacrificing Slayer weapons altogether, but that still doesn't make up for that much. Plus, your system's complicated. So let's just make it a bit more Slayer-like. Simple and stupid" You choose 3 elements. Renny can use all attacks of those elements at Slayer Power (100, at this level). He can switch elements as if he were switching weapons.


- Armor:
Reinforced Vest (Normal -50%, Always Equipped)
Pesticide Layer (Bug -50%, Evasion Debuff Immunity)
Shadow Suit (Dark -50%, Flinch Immunity)
Courage Emblem (Dragon -50%, SpDef Debuff Immunity)
Insulated Armor (Electric -50%, Paralyze Immunity)
Impact Gear (Fighting -50%, Def Debuff Immunity)
FR Suit (Fire -50%, Burn Immunity)
Windbreaker (Flying -50%, Crit Immunity)
Holy Talisman (Ghost -50%, Death Immunity)
Herbicide Layer (Grass -50%, Drain Immunity)
Jump Boots (Ground -50%, Acc Debuff Immunity)
Counter Injector (Poison -50%, Poison Immunity)
Brain Case (Psychic -50%, Confuse Immunity)
Thermal Underwear (Ice -50%, Freeze Immunity)
Sonic Guard (Rock -50%, Att Debuff Immunity)
Platemail (Steel -50%, Bleed Immunity)
Weather Cloak (Water -50%, Sleep Immunity)

-----
Slayer (Level 2)
- Armor Guardian Globe (Ruin type Defense) is available.
- Slayers can now equip one of the Accessories AB made/makes. Each use costs 30 rage. Wait, 30 rage? When was that finalized? Did AB actually accept my suggestion?

-----
Slayer (Level 3)

- Slayer Attacks have minimal base power of 130.
- Can wear a second accessory.
- ICT lets Renny choose up to 6 elements.

-----
Slayer (Level 4)

- All Slayers also gain Armor Affinity. What this means is that if a weapon they use deals the same type of damage as a piece of armor they have equipped protects against, they get a STAB modifier. This STAB modifier is double as opposed the 1.5 used by Trainers and Snaggers.
- I'm reluctant, but very well. 2.0 STAB for brids as well.


-----
Slayer (Level 5)

- Slayers now have access to the Rapid Deployable Powered Armor, or RDPA. PCs and NPCs can create custom armors that possess five attack types, five defense types, and one Overdrive. Like a Paradigm Shift, but doesn't cost Rage. Lasts for three turns.
- Can wear a third accessory.

-----
Overblade (Level 1)

- Base Rage generated is increased by 1.5 times (to 15 rage for slayer attack).
- Overblades can use the Overpower skill to remove status effects. 15 Rage cost.
- Shock Trooper Classification, letting Renny deploy both two pokemon, and himself

-----
Overblade (Level 2)

- Choose 4 stats. Those chosen stats gain 10 points.
- Overblades gain a special immunity to a physical-type status effect (Poison, Bad Poison, Paralyze, Freeze, Burn, Fire, Bleeding, Exhaustion)

-----
Overblade (Level 3)

- Choose 4 stats. Those chosen stats gain 15 points.
- Overblades gain an immunity to one of the following Pokemon types (Bug, Dark, Fighting, Flying, Grass, Ground, Normal, Rock, Steel). If Normal is selected, then a fourth armor can be worn to replace the default armor.
- Improved Mobility Armor: RDPA usage can be split multiple times, so it can be used for 3 turns worth, in segments of 1 turn. In addition, using an Overdrive on the first or second use doesn’t deplete the other usages as well.

I put my modifications and comments in red.

Okay, here we go. This is pretty much it. I moved some stuff around a little, and put shock trooper classification a little later. Also nerfed ICT, but I think that was necessary. I was torn whether to make it 3/6 or 4/8, I decided on the former. Depending on what type of pokemon you choose for your shift, the latter might be acceptable. I don't know.

Also, I think Paradigm shift is fine as it is. There's really no reason to change it, I think.

Also also, were you at all intending for Renny to get custom accessories? I assumed you were and just hadn't mentioned them.

[Menarker]

Making my comments by levels.


Pokebrid 1) ...Fine. It seems out of place that once Paradigm shift is activated, it couldn't be turned off to save energy.

BTW, just in case you weren't reading up the entire past discussions, it was decided that I could rearrange my stats a bit, just like your earlier request to AB saying that Slayers should be able to customize their stats a bit. The total stats allocated would still be equal to the formula AB posted. Basically going to rearrange it so Special Attack is the dump stat, but not pumping one or two stats skyhigh, but rather bringing up the lower stats so it's closer to the standards of a Slayer. Going to be tricky since even with the arranged stats combining slayer and the pokemon form, Renny is only going to be 5 point stronger than Charlotte's Arcanine, the strongest non-psuedo legendary pokemon in our group. (The pokemon form in question for pokebrid is not exactly top tier in terms of base stats.)

Trainer 5) It's that scapegoat move for Umbreon I've been planning for ages. It's basically an improved version of Pierce's Trainer Action "Mock" technique.

Breeder 1) Well, there hadn't been a real concensus regarding Ability Shift. I'm basically just assuming that I choose any new ability for any new pokemon and it replaced the old one and it was set in stone, although you had this idea of a pool of abilities and Drac allowing multiple abilities like Merc Pokemon do. (One of the few times where my idea was weaker than either yours or Drac)

Slayer 1) Nerfing ICT like that REALLY upsets me and I will not take it as you put it now. Moving on for now so I don't fill up with rant. However, it should probably be reminded that AB said Slayer weapons started at 120, not 100.

One thing that occurred to me. Slayers have an innate 6 item carrying capacity. I don't know why the upgrade sheet never mentions that. I don't know if Pokebrids have that too. (I think AB might have said that). But it's worth mentioning since Renny all this time had been at the 3 item restriction.

Slayer 2) Yes, AB thought that 30 rage was a good place. Said that it "made it stand out from Sweep" which has 25 rage.

Slayer 3) Once again, I'll discuss ICT later.

Slayer 4) Cool. At least there won't be any confusions in the matter.

Overblade 1) You moved Shock Trooper even further back... but ok. I'll accept that.

I personally wouldn't mind a Custom Accessory for Renny, and maybe I would put that for Overblade 2, since that one looks a little weak. However, I thought between ICT and Shock Trooper, asking for a custom item for Renny (for himself to hold as a Pokebrid) might be a little much since I'm still in the attempt to negotiate for ICT as I proposed it. Plus that would technically be an upgrade meant for higher level Pokebrids.

If you meant more custom accessories for my pokemons, then nope. I'm trying not to add too much stuff so the combination of ICT and Shock Trooper as I requested them isn't too much. I basically replaced them with the situational Anti-Domination/Snag thing.



As for ICT

Normal Slayers have:
1) All elements accessible. Not all at one time, but they can switch them out with a one turn delay.

2) All of their weapons have a 50% chance of a useful debuff or status condition or some other trigger (25% for Instant Death). That adds to their power because not only is the base damage of the weapon is potent, but because the debuffs makes them weaker for everyone else to take them down (If the Slayer attacked first with a Defense down weapon, then everyone else who attack with Attack types are twice as effective, like a Helping Hand) or remove the foe from combat for a bit (Flinch, Sleep) or hamper their powers (Burn, Paralsyis.)

3) Limit on how many elements they can carry, and which combination due to weapon size. That's the Slayer's limitation.


Renny on the other hand:
1) Does not have all the elements. At best, he'd have to use the RDPA to gain those attack types.

2) The attacks he uses do NOT typically have good effects or good effect chance. Out of the 27 moves, not even half of them have effects that can rival what Slayers got (10% or even 30% chance of activating). And even half of those that do have special effects are situational like Facade. Some of them are even functionally effectless. An elemental version of Quick Attack? In this RP, that would simply be an attack and nothing more!

Yes, I know I praised the effects of various moves such as certain Dark and Flying type moves. Those were example of some of the moves that CAN be used that would benefit from having their power set at Slayer Power instead of being useless because their base power was too low. As a whole though, most pokemons including the one I'm choosing only have a VERY small supply of moves with effects like that.

3) With the rare exception of Facade and moves like Giga Impact, all of the moves are equal in power to Slayer weapons. And not all the pokemon moves have 100% accuracy either.

So, with Slayer weapons being functionally superior in all respect. The only thing that's left to mention is the diversity which is supposed to be the combined effect of BOTH the diversity of Slayers and the diversity of Pokebrids. The same thing you're trying to insist on nerfing.

4) Proposed ICT diversity enable for Renny to feasibly almost always hit for Super Effectiveness and half the time for STAB. This diversity basically trades off the more reliable effects of Slayer Weapons for more consistancy when attacking. The offensive damage isn't any greater than when a Slayer attacks with STAB (4 armors, which is pretty close to my 6) and for Super Effectiveness. The power is equal. And Slayers GOT the better effects to begin with.

Plus, your system is complicated.

The system is not as complicated as it looks at all! Basically, those are just the limitations which you'll agree on in terms of the moves. I choose the moves when I get the class, they are set in stone and they are written down in my bio for all to see. When using them, just treat them like normal slayer attacks. Same power as slayer weapons, but use the moves for their effects and element. SIMPLE!

I'm still shocked you suggested Renny can "switch the elements" like they were weapons. You think someone can just suddenly forget on and off their training? No in-game justification there.



So seriously, don't nerf ICT's diversity of moves (which is frankly, don't nerf it at all). Especially not to equal that the number of slayer elements so it is the same which is TOTALLY UNFAIR (You're saying that Slayers should have equal amount of elements and power AND BETTER effects). The increased number of elements and the equality of damage power to the moves is pretty much the ENTIRE point of it! (Aside from any roleplay factors)

On a side note, one thing did come to mind was that two of the moves were AOE. I'd be willing to nerf those moves down so it only hit single target (since Pokebrids and Slayers do not get focus). No backlash, no AOE damage reduction, no free sweep.

And looking back on the moves, I'm removing one of the moves that doubles in power with every use. (There are a couple. Don't bother guessing which one) With starting power being 120, that would be broken and unsuitable.


One thing does come to mind is that we can wait until some time into the next mission to discuss this, since I'll be revealing my pokebrid form then. Then I can reveal the moves in mind and discuss things further. But I'm still adamant that what I proposing is fair (or rather what you are proposing is NOT, although that's somewhat understandable since you don't have all the info, hence why I'm suggesting we wait until next mission).

The most I would probably compromise is that I would divide all the elements into 2 sets, one set to get at Slayer level 1 and the other set to get at Slayer level 3. Roleplay justification being that he was still in the middle of training when he learned the second half.