Filler? I don't even know 'er! aka the fuck-Bleach [SPOILERS] megathread!

[Aerozord]

Originally Posted by Lithp

Oh, but my being mortal or bound to reality is an EXTRANEOUS ASSUMPTION!!!!1!!1~zomgeleventy!

It's a great analogy. We know Bleach characters can die. The entire series is ABOUT the afterlife. We also know that Soul Reapers can die. But it suddenly violates Occam's Razor to assume that one is dead because it hasn't happened in the story before?

That's like saying that, despite the fact that we know humans can die, we can't say that -I- will die, because that includes too many "assumptions." Since I have never died, it's "illogical" to conclude that I will, because that violates Occam's Razor! Why, you can't just assume that I'm bound to the same rules as all of you!

Now, I hope you can understand why I'm getting just a bit annoyed. You're trying to twist Occam's Razor to your advantage at the exact same time you're saying "Kubo can do whatever he wants." That shit doesn't fly in Logic Land.

I don't see how you expect me to argue on your terms when your terms seem to be "there are no rules except for what I decide is Kubo's pattern at the moment."

Two problems, first, you missunderstand what logic is. Logic is not a concrete method of coming to a conclusion. Occam's Razor is just one method. Here is an example

You come across 40 quarters all heads up. According to Occam's Razor someone dropped a stack of them and they all landed heads up, since while unlikely it requires the singular assumption "they fell". According to statistics, some outside force came in and turned them all heads up for some unknown reason. Which violates Occam's Razor as it requires a third party and motivation for him to do it.

Both are logical responses. Following or not following Occam's Razor is not manditory for a conclusion to be logical.

Secondly you aren't actually trying to make a logical arguement, you are attemting to make a sound arguement, which require information we are presented to be accurate. There are any number of details we could have missed or not understood. Kubo does foreshadowing well because you dont realize he is doing it. Yes Aizen being alive was foreshadowed, most people didn't guess he was alive though. At the time, to many, there was no foreshadowing.

To summarize, there can be more then one "logical" answer. Logical answer isn't nessicarily the correct one. 1000 years ago it was logical to believe you sail far enough you fall off the Earth, and was illogical to think you'd end up on the other side, all because the information they had was incorrect.

AhemDONT BRING LOGIC INTO A DISCUSSION ABOUT A SHOW WITH TALKING SENTIENT PLUSHIES

[Lithp]

With this post, I'm hoping that we finally found closure.

I actually have to agree with LithP

You capitalized the P in my name. I've seen people do this before. Is this a coincidence, or is it designed to make me paranoid?

This is 'Tite mothafuckin Kubo doesn't kill his popular main characters'. Logical or not, that's just how he is. If you want to discuss logic with Bleach you sort of have to accept that it's his logic because otherwise you're stopped at the door when you see people walking around on the sky.

Case in point: This was explained some time ago as being an extension of Shunpo. That people say it comes out of nowhere is a misconception.

I never said it wasn't POSSIBLE that Yamamoto could come back to life. Anything's possible. I just consider it unlikely.

To summarize, there can be more then one "logical" answer.

Then why do I have a dozen people telling me "YOU'RE WRONG & MISUSING OCCAM'S RAZOR!!!!"?

While I agree with this, I find it important to note that just because there CAN be 2 logical conclusions, it doesn't mean that all possibilities presented are logical.

Logical answer isn't nessicarily the correct one.

For the purposes of that conversation, I was ignoring Wall Banger Asspulls like, say, the 10 Tails from Naruto. I would agree that it was illogical & I would not fault anyone for saying the people who predicted it were morons because there was never any buildup to it.

1000 years ago it was logical to believe you sail far enough you fall off the Earth, and was illogical to think you'd end up on the other side, all because the information they had was incorrect.

Actually, it wasn't logical, it was just what they believed. But I more-or-less agree with what you said. However, I take offense to the remark that I "misunderstand logic" because I said AGES ago that Occam's Razor couldn't prove a thing correct, it only applied to the validity of an argument.

[Sithdarth]

Where does it say that Yamamoto is dead? I mean in his last appearance where he did the self sacrificial hadou thing it said very specifically that his "charred body" was the catalyst and that his arm was cracked. In the chapter before after jumping on the grenade that was his own sealed power the only parts of his body that are visibly charred are his arms possibly the left side of this face and his chest. Assuming he sacrificed every bit that was actually charred that still leaves him more intact than other people that have been revived later or simply didn't die. Of course the entire thing was non-specific enough so that he could have just sacrificed the charred part of his left arm for the hadou. Just because it says you sacrifice your body (and specifically the charred parts) doesn't mean you sacrifice all of your body (or in this case all of the charred parts). When I read it the first time I really just took it to mean he gave up the arm that was holding onto Aizen's leg to the hadou which certainly wouldn't leave him in a much worse state then he is in already. Certainly not much worse than other people on the battle field.

He might very well be dead but that would be a very radical departure for Kubo who just doesn't seem to want to let any good guys die.

[Lithp]

Where does it say that Yamamoto is dead?

Given what you said & assuming the fanslation is accurate, that is technically feasible. However, I find it suspicious that a part of his body that wasn't previously injured is now pure black & cracking apart, that we have nothing more out of Yamamoto, & just generally, death to be strongly implied.

I think the closest thing to a declaration of death is where Aizen says that it "is the sacrificial hado that uses one's own charred body as a catalyst." As you note, under a certain interpretation, it can be said that it's only part of the body that is sacrificed. Obviously, I do not interpret it that way, but I will concede that this is a valid theory.

He might very well be dead but that would be a very radical departure for Kubo who just doesn't seem to want to let any good guys die.

It's gotta start somewhere if he's going to do it. Also, maybe it's not that radical. The wounds that characters have been getting have been gradually increasing in terms of how dire they are. Slashes on the torso eventually gave way to limb removal, then bifurcation, & so on. Maybe the point is supposed to be that shit is getting real?

[Aerozord]

Originally Posted by Lithp

Then why do I have a dozen people telling me "YOU'RE WRONG & MISUSING OCCAM'S RAZOR!!!!"?

because it is a specific method. It is just as logical to say the character is as alive as he is dead, atleast I'm not saying your conclusion is illogical, I am saying you aren't using Occam's Razor to reach that conclusion. Because him still being alive requires the fewest assumptions. Your mistake is that you are accepting him being fatally injured as a fact, and that the assumption is that some outside method saved him. But that is not the fact, considering the setting its entirely possible he did not sustain injury, and we have seen no evidence. So thinking he was fatally injured is an assumption since last time we saw him he was not. Occam's Razor says that the logical conclusion is he continued to be alive. We have seen people survive alot worse

[Lithp]

Aerozord, the closest that statement can narrow it down is to an interpretation of the word usage. In that case, the assumptions for "alive" & "dead" are equal: The intended meaning of the lines.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Originally Posted by Lithp

Actually, it wasn't logical, it was just what they believed. But I more-or-less agree with what you said. However, I take offense to the remark that I "misunderstand logic" because I said AGES ago that Occam's Razor couldn't prove a thing correct, it only applied to the validity of an argument.

From a modern standpoint, no it is not logical.

From their standpoint, it was. That's the point he's making.
Logic is just interpreting how we know what we know. If you know the Earth is flat, then you will obviously fall off it. That's logic.
Whether or not it actually is flat...Well, we only find that out when the next chapter comes out, don't we?


It's not that I think you're wrong, Lithp, it's just that I think you're trying to prove you have a point in an incredibly logically unsound way. And my nature forces me to try and tell you 'bout it cause I got nothin' better ta be doin with me time, ya see?

[Sithdarth]

Given what you said & assuming the fanslation is accurate, that is technically feasible.

It was translated the same way but two separate groups. That usually means accuracy.

However, I find it suspicious that a part of his body that wasn't previously injured is now pure black & cracking apart, that we have nothing more out of Yamamoto, & just generally, death to be strongly implied.

1) That part of his body was already charred black from jumping on the explosion. It was right there in chapter 395. Both of his arms below the elbows are clearly black. It looks like the left side of his face and is chest is as well but those could just be shadows. The cracking apart was obviously just part of the hadou and the black was already there. Plus the only part that is ever described as cracking at all is his arm and both translations were very specific about a cracking arm but never mentioned anything else cracking. This doesn't mean it wasn't but it doesn't mean it was either.

2) He was more than injured enough to be knocked out or at the very least useless in a fighting sense. He certainly was bad enough he couldn't move just from smothering that blast. The fact that we haven't heard anything from him suggests nothing more than he is somehow incapable of getting to the action.

3) Kubo as clearly moved on to other interesting things. Just because we haven't heard from the people in the fake town in a while doesn't mean he won't back track and show us what has been going on during the hour we've currently been experiencing. It is a common enough narrative tactic and Kubo has been using it for the past 100 chapters or more essentially since the fake town arc started with the hopping back and forth.

[Aerozord]

Just tossing this out there. I got the impression he sacrificed his arm. This is Kubo we are talking about

Originally Posted by Sithdarth

It was translated the same way but two separate groups. That usually means accuracy.

Actually that would be precise, multiple people can make the same mistake

sorry for that I'm really bored

[Sithdarth]

Actually that would be precise, multiple people can make the same mistake

sorry for that I'm really bored

The point is that it is unlikely. It's the best you get in science. I believe the term is intersubjective verification or at least that is the closest thing that applies.