Fall of Anime 2011 - The Threadening

[Kim]

What exactly is the point of that post?

[Ramary]

It is the nice way for me to respond to that link, trust me.

[Kim]

Okay, so when I was thinking it was the reactionary behavior of an insecure person when presented with something that makes them uncomfortable, I was right. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Originally Posted by Liz

Okay, so when I was thinking it was the reactionary behavior of an insecure person when presented with something that makes them uncomfortable, I was right. Thanks for clearing that up.

Wasn't your link a reaction to a situation that made you feel uncomfortable?

[Ramary]

Oh yeah it makes me uncomfortable because there are still people like the author and you who are picking fights to defend the LGBT community at the wrong targets and starting a pointless shitstorm like this when none of the gay people I know had a problem with this at all. There are plenty of other places with real hate for LGBT community and spread a message that they are sinful in some way, this was just trying to funny and showing that yes, Yoskue is an asshole and yes Yu keeps picking the "snarky bastard" response in his conversation choices. This is not related to the base thread at all btw, so I suggest we stop using ad hominem and drop this.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Karesh

Wasn't your link a reaction to a situation that made you feel uncomfortable?

I would argue that an intelligent explanation of how a show perpetuates and supports the negative treatment of homosexuals is not the same as someone going out of their way to say, "Well I don't give a fuck, so THERE!" in response to said explanation.

You're not a complete idiot, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that you actually agree with that, and are getting nitpicky because I'm being mean. To which I can only say, yes, because frankly going out of your way to say "I don't give a fuck~" in response to a member of an underpriveleged group complaining about the way a person/show/book/etc treats an underpriveleged group is kind of an asshole thing that I'm not inclined to let slide.

On the off-chance that you do consider "I don't give a fuck~" on the same level as a member of an underprivileged group explaining that something is perpetuating negative treatment of underprivileged groups and (rightfully) complaining about it, then I don't really have a response because I have no idea what is wrong with you.

there are still people like the author and you who are picking fights to defend the LGBT community at the wrong targets and starting a pointless shitstorm like this

Who the right targets are is not your decision.

when none of the gay people I know had a problem with this at all.

None of the gay people I know were okay with it! I live my IRL life as a gay man and I'm not okay with it. "My gay friends say it's okay" is never a defense of something, because it is merely using "gay friends" to defend the opinion you would have had regardless.

This is not related to the base thread at all btw, so I suggest we stop using ad hominem and drop this.

You went out of your way to be a jackass. I have zero patience for this shit. Don't want shit? Don't start shit.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Originally Posted by Liz

I would argue that an intelligent explanation of how a show perpetuates and supports the negative treatment of homosexuals is not the same as someone going out of their way to say, "Well I don't give a fuck, so THERE!" in response to said explanation.

The show doesn't perpetuate or support negative treatment of Homosexuals anymore than it supports or perpetuates throwing people into the TV.

Yosuke's a jerk, it's his character flaw. And as Ramary said this isn't "Suddenly Yu is an asshole", it's that Yu has been picking the snarkiest responses at every turn. "Careful on the way down", "I wish I'd taped it", "Do you want a copy?" As far as I remember the interactions of the game, Yu's taken the choice to be as much an ass as possible. In fact throughout the reading of that page it keeps saying that you can choose to be supportive of Kanji, but it fails to mention that the dialogue presented was part of the choice as well. And that choosing to be supportive of Kanji is going against what the MC has been up to this point. Almost every choice the game gave that the anime has presented has shown the same result, whoever is managing this play-through thinks being an asshole is funny as hell.

At a very base level I disagree with the idea that showing something is support or advocacy for it. Yu and Yosuke are shown being absolute assholes and it's played for comedy, but the show doesn't make a point of making them right for it.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Karesh

At a very base level I disagree with the idea that showing something is support or advocacy for it. Yu and Yosuke are shown being absolute assholes and it's played for comedy, but the show doesn't make a point of making them right for it.

Except it's never framed as them being assholes. By playing harmful, hateful behavior for laughs with no aspect of the show framing it as actually being as hateful, harmful, and assholish as it is, it distracts from the fact that it is in fact horrible and treats it as "okay."

There is no element of the show that shows homosexuality in a positive light. There are no characters shown who are supportive of it. All characters were quick to resort to violence because "the queer is making us uncomfortable." (Even before Kanji's shadow posed any threat to them whatsoever.)

There is in fact no part of any of the show that refutes the claim that the show is homophobic.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Originally Posted by Liz

Except it's never framed as them being assholes. By playing harmful, hateful behavior for laughs with no aspect of the show framing it as actually being as hateful, harmful, and assholish as it is, it distracts from the fact that it is in fact horrible and treats it as "okay."

Buut it's not horrible.
Or at the least I can't help but think that I don't see it as any worse than the ribbing I got from my friends for being born.
Oh hey you're British? I'll make fun of you for that.
You're more overweight? Well then I'll make fun of you back for that.
You have more money? Less money? Whatever. Maybe I'm just undersensitive from a lifetime of constant sarcastic biting back and forth between me and my friends and even between me and my father, but I can't see what they did to Kanji as "horrible".

Even beyond that it doesn't really seem like Kanji was distraught or any more offended than usual. He had the same reaction to their insults that he did when they stole his second serving to feed the kid who's sister had died.

There is no element of the show that shows homosexuality in a positive light. There are no characters shown who are supportive of it. All characters were quick to resort to violence because "the queer is making us uncomfortable."
There is in fact no part of any of the show that refutes the claim that the show is homophobic.

Except, you know, the Main Character. What with telling Kanji that there's no problem with who he is, to accept his shadow and be himself.
And everyone else, as they chat with him and interact with him as if he's a normal person they're friends with.

Actually about the British thing I want to be extra clear cause I just remembered a very applicable situation. I was told to my face by my best friend that I shouldn't be in the same cabin as him because I am a dirty red coat traitor and cannot be trusted.
And then I turned around and told him that his pathetic colonies have no sovereignty and will be annexed soon enough and the only way for him to survive was to surrender immediately.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Karesh

Buut it's not horrible.
Or at the least I can't help but think that I don't see it as any worse than the ribbing I got from my friends for being born.
Oh hey you're British? I'll make fun of you for that.
You're more overweight? Well then I'll make fun of you back for that.
You have more money? Less money? Whatever. Maybe I'm just undersensitive from a lifetime of constant sarcastic biting back and forth between me and my friends and even between me and my father, but I can't see what they did to Kanji as "horrible".

Well, as far as I know, British aren't negatively stereotyped as sexual predators, nor do they have that stereotype used as a justification for the restriction of their basic human rights. Gay people are. Thus, a line from Yosuke that essentially reads as, "Are you going to rape us in our sleep?" is pretty bad.

If Kanji's shadow had been fat, or poor, or British, the cast would not have reacted immediately with violence and fear.

ALSO, there is a pretty substantial difference between how society treats gay people and how society treats being British. This is what we call societal context. As far as I know, there are not substantial segments of society arguing that all British people are inherently bad. British aren't stereotyped as sexual predators and pedophiles. There aren't laws forbidding British people from getting married. When a British person is on TV, there isn't a big uproar about it. There aren't countries trying to pass laws that would have British people put to death.

If this were not the case, and the world was totally okay with gay people, then yes gentle ribbing would be okay. I wouldn't get upset over "gentle ribbing." If this were the case, I would accept that the show is attempting to portray them as assholes, because such behavior would be, by and large across the world, be considered assholish. There are substantial groups of people who think such treatment of gay people is actually A-OK.

Even beyond that it doesn't really seem like Kanji was distraught or any more offended than usual. He had the same reaction to their insults that he did when they stole his second serving to feed the kid who's sister had died.

Right, because the creators of a homophobic show are going to be self-aware enough to portray reasonable, realistic reactions to homophobia. Except, you know, not.

Except, you know, the Main Character. What with telling Kanji that there's no problem with who he is, to accept his shadow and be himself.
And everyone else, as they chat with him and interact with him as if he's a normal person they're friends with.

Everything about how the show framed "accepting Kanji" and "Kanji accepting himself" was done in a way to diminish and quite possibly erase his identity as a gay person. They weren't accepting "gay Kanji." They were accepting "Kanji who likes cute things." They were accepting "Kanji who fears rejection." They were accepting "Kanji who isn't 'manly.'" At no point in the episode was it ever portrayed as them accepting a gay person. Their reactions to homosexuality were violence, anger, and fear, from every single fucking one of them.

Actually about the British thing I want to be extra clear cause I just remembered a very applicable situation. I was told to my face by my best friend that I shouldn't be in the same cabin as him because I am a dirty red coat traitor and cannot be trusted.
And then I turned around and told him that his pathetic colonies have no sovereignty and will be annexed soon enough and the only way for him to survive was to surrender immediately.

When British people are treated by society in any way approaching the way gay people often are, this will be applicable. This is not the case, so it isn't applicable.