Scientology sees flood of former members speak out. - Page 9

synkr0nized · 11-02-2009, 10:02 PM

EDIT: Jesus Christ, stop posting when I am trying to write out a reasonable response to a thread. You guys appear to already be moving in a better direction.
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All right, we should probably steer this thread in a less destructive direction.

Funka, I don't feel anyone was arguing for Scientology or the types of things described in the article but rather against your strongly-arrogant assumptions about the character and worth of the individuals involved and your direction of feelings, as the discussion progressed, toward anyone in a situation that has spiraled out of their control and/or where they made a decision you've arbitrarily judged as poor. It's not really the what of your posts so much as it's the how and why of them. I'm willing to bet at least some people on this forum have similar opinions as you on this issue.

Also, continuing down the path to a post like this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funka Genocide

It occurs to me that I'm the only providing any real substance to this thread, and the majority of others input is people attempting to take apart my statements. Kind of makes me feel like I'm the only one who has any real conviction in my ideals, which kind of makes this a pointless conversation, if you catch my drift.

was a pretty poor idea and not accurate (I'd wager plenty of your co-discussants felt pretty strongly, "convicted in their ideals"), though through Krylo I think we've cleared that up.

Similarly, let's not all resort completely to off-handed ad hominem just because we don't agree with someone.

By all means, continue the discussion and all that, but let's tone down the negativity.

MasterOfMagic · 11-02-2009, 10:04 PM

I wouldn't expect confessions from people leaving the Church to focus on bringing about its end. For people who were caught up in it, it would be all to easy to focus on the good things that got them into it in the first place, and associate all of the bad things with the leadership.

Perhaps the media coverage should focus more on the Church itself, I don't know. I certainly came away with a distaste for the entire organization, not just its head. I obviously agree the whole thing should be eradicated.

Funka Genocide · 11-02-2009, 10:06 PM

roger wilco Synk.

haha.

No you guys are right that I was being an arrogant prick, which sucks for me because it really undermined my whole point. but ah well.

And yeah, its been a while since I read the articles but the focus seemed mainly on the leader, which is good fluff for a news articles but I think does less as a platform for combating an abusive systems like this than would a commentary on the organization as a whole.

Also yeah I agree that the general inclination of institutionalized people would probably be to assocaite all the bad things with some great big "they" who constitute the controlling portion of whatever organization they left, at least in my experience this is the case. When I left the military I had a lot of fond memories of partying with my friends and seeing the world, while all the un-fun stuff was chalked up to "those big evil bastards."

But when you finally take a step outside you've got to view the organization as a whole and really try to be honest, and starting with yourself is typically the best way to go. I'd assume this would help you shed the victim mentality by taking responsibility for your own decisions, as well as the actions of your friends.

synkr0nized · 11-02-2009, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterOfMagic

I wouldn't expect confessions from people leaving the Church to focus on bringing about its end. For people who were caught up in it, it would be all to easy to focus on the good things that got them into it in the first place, and associate all of the bad things with the leadership.

Perhaps the media coverage should focus more on the Church itself, I don't know. I certainly came away with a distaste for the entire organization, not just its head. I obviously agree the whole thing should be eradicated.

There's difficulty here, both from the point you mention in the first paragraph and from the fact that it's difficult to hamper the momentum of any large body of organized individuals at large scales.

Bad things have happened to people in other churches and religious groups (I am sure we could harp on some happenings within the Christian faiths, for example, or the current Republican party in the US). While it may be true that the heads of these organizations are not similarly as deeply involved or to blame as in Scientology, the ability to separate the whole from the bad portions is still relevant and applicable. We may want to tear down the whole creature that is Scientology, sure, but plenty of others will rally to support it regardless of these kinds of incidents.

Larger-scale change is necessary, I think, for anything to happen. However, it may be that coverage and investigation of local entities, informing people on a more personal level, may help the overall exposure of how Scientology indoctrinates and exploits its membership.

Another problem, perhaps, is that it's really easy to ignore when you are not involved. It's not like I concern myself with eradicating Scientology. No one I know subscribes to it, it has no presence, or a very minimal one if it does, where I live, and it as of yet does not encroach upon my life and rights. Truly I hope it never does, but unlike political arguments that affect my nation, state, and town or academic issues that impact my work or so forth it has no bearing on me and is ignorable and mocked as needed. Maybe if data supports that Scientology is an endemic social disease that not only harms individuals but harms our culture it could be better addressed.

Funka Genocide · 11-02-2009, 10:30 PM

Well (and this is going to be potentially inflammatory) I think one of the reasons Scientology enjoys such freedom of operation is the fact that the longer it exists, the more credence it builds as an actula religious institution, and you run the risk of insulting or upsetting the larger religious populace by introducing sanctions against it, not because they're concerned about Scientology but because of what it might entail for other religions.

MasterOfMagic · 11-02-2009, 10:41 PM

I think that's a perfectly valid concern, and it doesn't really speak badly of anyone other than Scientology.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synk

There's difficulty here, both from the point you mention in the first paragraph and from the fact that it's difficult to hamper the momentum of any large body of organized individuals at large scales.

Yeah, that's why I don't actually believe we'll ever be rid of it completely. Or at least not in my lifetime.

Funka Genocide · 11-02-2009, 10:44 PM

Well if it is a valid concern I don't think it speaks badly of any religion, but I don't think it speaks goodly either. It's kind of like a parasitic relationship, the host doesn't like the parasite and yet, the removal of the parasite might injure it more and so it simply deals with it.

MasterOfMagic · 11-02-2009, 11:05 PM

I think I'll avoid comment on that :P

(Not because I'm offended, I just don't think I could avoid offending others unintentionally)

Funka Genocide · 11-02-2009, 11:15 PM

you see this is why people like you MoM. haha.

NPF makes me feel like a crotchety old man.

Sir Pinkleton · 11-02-2009, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funka Genocide

you see this is why people like you MoM. haha.

NPF makes me feel like a crotchety old man.

"Old man Funka" has a thing with it, but "Old man Genocide" sounds like Hitler.

11-02-2009, 10:06 PM	#83
Funka Genocide Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,566	roger wilco Synk. haha. No you guys are right that I was being an arrogant prick, which sucks for me because it really undermined my whole point. but ah well. And yeah, its been a while since I read the articles but the focus seemed mainly on the leader, which is good fluff for a news articles but I think does less as a platform for combating an abusive systems like this than would a commentary on the organization as a whole. Also yeah I agree that the general inclination of institutionalized people would probably be to assocaite all the bad things with some great big "they" who constitute the controlling portion of whatever organization they left, at least in my experience this is the case. When I left the military I had a lot of fond memories of partying with my friends and seeing the world, while all the un-fun stuff was chalked up to "those big evil bastards." But when you finally take a step outside you've got to view the organization as a whole and really try to be honest, and starting with yourself is typically the best way to go. I'd assume this would help you shed the victim mentality by taking responsibility for your own decisions, as well as the actions of your friends. Last edited by Funka Genocide; 11-02-2009 at 10:13 PM.

11-02-2009, 11:05 PM	#88
MasterOfMagic ahahah Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 3,456	I think I'll avoid comment on that :P (Not because I'm offended, I just don't think I could avoid offending others unintentionally) Last edited by MasterOfMagic; 11-02-2009 at 11:12 PM.

11-02-2009, 10:04 PM	#82
MasterOfMagic ahahah Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 3,456	I wouldn't expect confessions from people leaving the Church to focus on bringing about its end. For people who were caught up in it, it would be all to easy to focus on the good things that got them into it in the first place, and associate all of the bad things with the leadership. Perhaps the media coverage should focus more on the Church itself, I don't know. I certainly came away with a distaste for the entire organization, not just its head. I obviously agree the whole thing should be eradicated.

11-02-2009, 10:30 PM	#85
Funka Genocide Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,566	Well (and this is going to be potentially inflammatory) I think one of the reasons Scientology enjoys such freedom of operation is the fact that the longer it exists, the more credence it builds as an actula religious institution, and you run the risk of insulting or upsetting the larger religious populace by introducing sanctions against it, not because they're concerned about Scientology but because of what it might entail for other religions.

11-02-2009, 10:44 PM	#87
Funka Genocide Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,566	Well if it is a valid concern I don't think it speaks badly of any religion, but I don't think it speaks goodly either. It's kind of like a parasitic relationship, the host doesn't like the parasite and yet, the removal of the parasite might injure it more and so it simply deals with it.

11-02-2009, 11:15 PM	#89
Funka Genocide Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,566	you see this is why people like you MoM. haha. NPF makes me feel like a crotchety old man.