[DISCUSS] Gaston is better than the Beast

[Nique]

No that is pretty obviously not what I'm saying.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Terrorism is the systematic use of terror, especially as a means of coercion. In the international community, however, terrorism has no universally agreed, legally binding, criminal law definition.

...
The word "terrorism" is politically and emotionally charged, and this greatly compounds the difficulty of providing a precise definition. Studies have found over 100 definitions of “terrorism”. The concept of terrorism may itself be controversial as it is often used by state authorities (and individuals with access to state support) to delegitimize political or other opponents, and potentially legitimize the state's own use of armed force against opponents (such use of force may itself be described as "terror" by opponents of the state).

Terrorism has been practiced by a broad array of political organizations for furthering their objectives. It has been practiced by both right-wing and left-wing political parties, nationalistic groups, religious groups, revolutionaries, and ruling governments.

...

Originally Posted by Hawk

.... As I recall they hid and they ran, and when they couldn't do that they stood up and fought back on even terms, which is what, you know, armies in a war do.

I am not enough of a Star Wars buff to remember their explicit tactics, but in a realistic scenario, in order to effectively fight the Empire the Rebels would by necessity have to use terrorist-like tactics by making tons of violent, opportunistic attacks, and make use of propaganda (which is not the same as lying).

Maybe I'm wrong but you seem to be confusing me saying that the Rebels qualify as terrorists with me saying that the Rebels were bad people.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The rebels were bad people. They wanted to replace a rational progressive stable empire with one based on outdated religious fundamentalism.

May the force be with you=allahu akbar

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Originally Posted by Nique

in order to effectively fight the Empire the Rebels would by necessity have to use terrorist-like tactics by making tons of violent, opportunistic attacks, and make use of propaganda

No, violent opportunistic attacks are the staple of guerrilla warfare, which is entirely different from terrorist tactics. Also we have absolutely no evidence that they use such terror tactics as used by any of our present day notions of terrorism. All of the conflicts we saw them engaged in with the Empire where stand up battles where they pitted 1 army against another, which is exactly the opposite of what terrorists do. If anybody was using propoganda it was the Empire, to cover up their genocidal destruction of entire planets and to maintain their tyrannical stranglehold on an entire galaxy.

Maybe I'm wrong but you seem to be confusing me saying that the Rebels qualify as terrorists with me saying that the Rebels were bad people.

No, I'm arguing that your definition of terrorism is wrong, and that the Rebellion were not terrorists. Your arguement seems to be that there is not exact definition of terrorism, and therefore terrorism can cover a whole host of different possibilities, but underneath it all I'm sure we can agree, there is ONE fundamental truth of terrorism; it has to cause terror. It is used to make people scared, intentionally, if for no other reason that to simply make them scared. The only people who were scared of the Rebellion were the military personel of the Empire, because they were the only ones who ever came into direct combat with the Rebellion. The Rebellion did not attack peaceful worlds, did not bomb civilians, did not transmit messages of hate or spread fear and hatred among the masses. They used stealth and surprise to attack enemy installations, probably the odd raid for military hardware, smuggled hardware and peoples around the galaxy, but they did not do anything that under any definition counts as actual terrorism.

If anybody was using terrorist tactics it would be the Empire as a means over its population, by using propoganda to make the Rebellion seem "evil". And lets face it, the planetary garrisons of Stormtroopers were oppressive, corrupt and probably more terrifying to see wandering around than anything the Rebellion might do to a world. Not to mention officers in the military would be routinly executed for the smallest mistakes or setbacks, which is entirely counter-productive to morale and probably more likely and terrifying than being killed by the apparantly "terrorist" enemy you're fighting.

Originally Posted by Smarty McBarrelpants

The rebels were bad people. They wanted to replace a rational progressive stable empire with one based on outdated religious fundamentalism.

May the force be with you=allahu akbar

Yes, one where entire planets with no weapons could be blown up at a moments notice due to vauge asscociations with a single individual accused and sentenced of crimes without any kind of trial. Real progresive that!

That's like burning down an entire town in any modern day first world country because you suspect 1 person who moved to that town 10 years ago is a spy.

[Ecks]

Not to ruin everyone's fun but...

Oh what am I saying, of course it's to ruin everyone's fun.

Is it that magical time when we're done actually talking about the topic and now we're just riding the coattails of this trainwreck until it gets locked after the argument flies off the rails out of control?

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Nique

Pretty much sounds like the Rebel Alliance, Sonic The Hedgehog, Brown Coats, the Maquis, or equivalent in whatever other particular flavor of science fiction themed social commentary you chose.

Nah, they weren't using violence to intimidate or coerce in any of the movies. They were using violence with very clear military-esque mission statements. Infiltrate and blow up a military compound. Extricate prisoners. Etc.

Terrorism requires that intimidation and coercion be the goal not a secondary effect. The Rebel Alliance wasn't trying to scare the Empire into doing a thing, they were trying to overthrow the Empire. Their attempts to coerce were done toward the people, not the government, and were not done with violence.

There's no legal definition of terrorism, but there is A definition of terrorism and the Rebel Alliance doesn't fall under its umbrella. At least not unless you cock your head just so, and squint just right, while holding a picture of a burning building next to it.

I mean, to be totally fair, the Empire totally would have called them terrorists, and probably would have lied about a lot of the shit that actually went on, most likely blaming the rebellion for about half the Empire's own atrocities while pointing at that half to justify the other half. It's just that it would have been, you know, lies. Not a factual representation of what the Rebel Alliance actually was or did.

[Nique]

Originally Posted by Krylo

I mean, to be totally fair, the Empire totally would have called them terrorists, and probably would have lied about a lot of the shit that actually went on, most likely blaming the rebellion for about half the Empire's own atrocities while pointing at that half to justify the other half. It's just that it would have been, you know, lies. Not a factual representation of what the Rebel Alliance actually was or did.

This is probably more or less the case, yeah. I guess the problem in making real-world analogy to Star Wars is that there is no indication in the (good) films that the Empire did anything to present a friendlier image or use propaganda against the rebels even, let alone that there is no way the Empire could have survived anyway with such insane military and human rights policies.

But look, I just wanted the real terrorists to have some positive role models, is that so wrong?

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Nique

let alone that there is no way the Empire could have survived anyway with such insane military and human rights policies.

I think the official explanation for this is that Emperor Palpatine was actually using a galaxy wide low level 'jedi mind trick' to make the Empire seem cool.

[Kim]

Star Wars is duuuuuuuumb.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Originally Posted by Krylo

I think the official explanation for this is that Emperor Palpatine was actually using a galaxy wide low level 'jedi mind trick' to make the Empire seem cool.

This came up in the EU Thrawn Trilogy once as well, and was apparantly why the Empire lost the battle of Endor after the Emperor died, because he was actually controlling and directing much of the battle. Not sure how accurate that is though, been a while since I've seen the film and I can't recall if the turning point came before or after his death.

That and the EU stuff is canonically debatable anyway.

[Locke cole]

Doesn't Lucas go over the EU books with a fine-toothed iron fist?

I may be misinformed, but I think I remember hearing something along the lines of that mixed metaphor.