The Beheading of Nick Berg

[Bob The Mercenary]

First off, U.S. troops didn't hit or torture the prisoners at Abu Ghraib, they just put them in humorous poses. But, now I'm thinking we should. This incident was no reason to go hacking off a contractor's noggin. Meanwhile, everyone's pissed at America for taking those photos. Does anyone remember the incident in Fallujah back in March when the American contractors were burned alive and their bodies hung from a bridge? No matter what happens, we always seem to come out as horrible people.

My condolences to the Berg family.

[Sky Warrior Bob]

A: If you think those photos just depicted "humorous" poses, then I'd suggest you take a re-evaluation of your sense of humor. Consider how you'd feel if your Grandmothers, and various female members of your family were put into the same positions.

Now how do you feel?

B:
http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/b...news/4000h.htm

The decapitated guy may have actually been part of the whole thing. I don't know that for certain, but the above article makes the case for it, at very least its worth looking into, as there have been a few people who've at least hinted as a contractor connection to this scandel.

C: http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/b...sday/4000h.htm

90% of the people force to do these sick, sick acts didn't even belong in prison. At least according to the Red Cross.

I know this is political Kryptonite for the Republicans, insofar as they wish it never happened, and because they were in charge they're afraid of being blamed. However, to pretend it didn't happen or to suggest it wasn't that bad, makes your stand worse, not better. So instead of coming to one conclusion of how to think about all of the events, I suggest you take a wait N' see attitude.

SWB

[DarthZeth]

Merc, torture doesn't do us any good. Torture doesn't work well as an Interogation technique. and interogation is about the only thing that could possibly justify torture. you know, requiring life or death information. and while three hots and a cot is more than most of these peopel deserve, handing out torure isn't going to solve anything.

SWB: don't pretend of a second that up to 90% of those people being "humiliated" were innocent. A lot of people have been parading around the Red Cross quote that 90% of detainees were mistakenly arrested. but they always seem to forget to mention that it also says that most mistaken detainees are released almost immediately.

Everyone in those photos we saw was a considered a high security threat. We have already removed even the common criminals from being gaurded by US troops. Also, some of the "abuse" isn't. the Red cross report mentions that prisoners were routinely put in soletary confinement and underwent sensory deprevation. that's not "abuse". that's interrigation. The REAL abuse is only anecdotal, like a handful of prisoners with burns or bruises.


The real problem i have with the situation about the prisons is that some peopel are pretending that this all of a sudden makes us the Bag Guys (actually, most of the people syaing that already thought we WERE the bad guys.)

and consider Ted Kennedy's remark that "Shamefully we now learn that Saddam's torture chambers reopened under new management, U.S. management".

There's only two possibilities here: Teddy doesn't have a clue what happened to Saddam's prisoners on a REGULAR basis... or he has completely politicized the issue. Bob here describes this issue as "kryptonite". a democratic senate staffer describe this as "a silver bullet" to kill the republicans with. But this is going to blow up in their faces if Teddy and freinds keep saying shit like that. We have Teddy saying the armed forces are just like saddam, while the Nick Berg video gets what? no comment?

form Teddy's perspective, his immediate enemy is the Republican Party. The bastards in Iraq? they are no threat to him. its a complete lack of moral clarity

[Sky Warrior Bob]

Originally Posted by DarthZeth

We have Teddy saying the armed forces are just like saddam, while the Nick Berg video gets what? no comment?

I seem to recally reading/hearing somewhere that Berg's family didn't want the video/info aired. Plus, unless you want to reverse the privacy for the families, regarding deaths in Iraq, as a reason to not show the bodies, there's nothing to be done regarding this issue.

And Zeth, has the Red Cross report been released to the public yet? Last I knew it was confidential, so at least as far as I know, neither your or I can make any absolute claims to what it does or doesn't say. Not to say you're wrong, but unless the report is made public, all 2nd hand information is at least somewhat suspect.

SWB

[Bob The Mercenary]

I never said it wasn't that bad or it could be worse. Sure, is was idiotic and immoral to do this to the prisoners, and yes I would feel shitty if my grandparents were put in that position. I just get mad when "extremists" live up to their names. Hacking a guy's head off? We should hack their gonads off. That really was not necessary.

I just had a conversation with one of my friends as he watched me type this. He asked me a question that took me a second to answer. He's on the opposite end of the spectrum. What he asked me was "What makes one person's life more valuable than another's? Does where he was born make him worth any more?" He asked me this when I told him that I get pissed when American soldiers die. I said that I'm not going to root for the side opposing my country's, but he countered by accusing me of being ethnocentric. He thinks that war is always sad no matter who dies, which I understand, but, how was I supposed to answer that?

[Viper Daimao]

well one group is a bunch of people who have blood of US soldiers on their hands, and who knows who elses blood, the other is a civilian who went to Iraq to help re-build their country, and to see his iraqi relative (by his mother's or sisters or someone's marriage i think)

id venture to say that maybe one of those lives is worth more than the other. remember, all people are created equal, but that doesnt mean they stay that way.

edit: also, lets not pretend that the beheading was the result of the prison abuse. al qaeda would have, and has done stuff like this before, it was just convient for them to blame it on the scandle.

[Omega Mage Zero]

There are more photos and some videos showing much worse abuse (like sodomy and siccing dogs on people) that have not been released yet. Some members of Congress viewed them yesterday.

So we're not just talking about "humiliating poses" anymore. And it looks like it was more widespread than just Abu Graib.

[Sky Warrior Bob]

Hopefully, the disturbing imagery type torture is restricted just to this one prison, and while I have no doubt there are other abuses going on in other prisons, I don't think they'd nearly be on the same level. Personally, I just hope that we make a huge re-evaluation of how we run our military prisons, because I think its a huge mistake to ignore geneva conventions of any kind (yes, even in Cuba) and I think the idea of using torture of any kind (even just sleep depreivation), has opened up too many cans of worms.

SWB

[Viper Daimao]

I heard Senator James Inhofe say he saw the new pictures and they were nothing new, more of the same type of pictures from before.

of course he wasnt talking about these pictures which are an outrage of a different nature.

[Sky Warrior Bob]

Originally Posted by Viper Daimao

I heard Senator James Inhofe say he saw the new pictures and they were nothing new, more of the same type of pictures from before.

Inhofe's reaction doesn't represent the whole though...

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/b...news/3000h.htm

Sky Warrior Bob