If you live in the United States, you should be disgusted with your country

[Kim]

You can't really expect people to check their emotions at the door about this shit, especially when it affects them. Like, it's just not realistic. The government condones the murder of black people. In general, but especially by cops. If you don't want people to get mad on these forums about our government sponsored genocide then you don't allow us to talk about government sponsored genocide here. Like, I get that you don't want conflict, but if we talk about REALLY SERIOUSLY AWFUL SHIT here and then you have people saying a twelve year old kid being murdered by cops totally wasn't about race or talking shit on "rioting" or how cops can't be expected to call out their own or support protesters cuz "well it MIGHT cause problems!" then yeah people are gonna get some of that perfectly reasonable directed at them. It's just unrealistic and unreasonable to expect otherwise. So, either no more serious discussion subforum or accept a certain amount of anger is going to be present and make sense.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Kim

So, either no more serious discussion subforum or accept a certain amount of anger is going to be present and make sense.

I wouldn't even understand the purpose for the existence of this community if we got rid of the serious discussion subforum. "All topics that are important enough to people that we're at risk at reacting viscerally and emotionally to them are banned." Some community we are if we can't even handle the 'heat' of actually talking frankly about everything that actually matters.

The irony of this all is that I personally believe that true friendship is best exemplified through passionate disagreement. You show up to a party and exchange pleasantries with everyone? That isn't real friendship, that's not real community. Real friendship is telling someone you love that they're wrong, to their face, while shaking in anger, and still respecting them once the argument is over and still calling them your friend. You want to foster a real community, and not just a place for us to show up and pretend to tolerate one another while hiding all our misgivings behind a curtain, that's exactly what you should promote.

[Overcast]

Yeah I'd love to see that, but since they live in this world and they are so set on believing that they are in the right they will refuse to because that is the thought of the organization. Step against the organization and you find yourself being phased out, which isn't right but it is the way it is.

The fraternity does what it does, those who fuck up are protected because they feel they owe it to them, and when you make a step against that fucked little honor code you end up looking untrustworthy. Even if you are simply doing what you think is right.

People ultimately do what is best for themselves most of the time, not only because doing the opposite may hurt them, but because it is unlikely to help them or change anything immediately. You strike yourself as being another casualty of history, before things got better you were one of those folks who had to be given up to make it happen. You can't support your family by being a hero, by taking the bullet, by being the good person. You get paid, and let it all keep happening till you can get out.

I'd say personally that the answer is oversight. Internal Affairs is one of those fantastic things the fraternity hates because they are people who make their living by breaking up this kind of bullshit, the kind of folks who get promoted off the downfall of whole organizations. That isn't enough though, the organization of those who watch the watchers has to be bigger, more prevalent and motivated so that they can feel just like me. Afraid that any small infraction against you will be not only the end of your job, but your ability to make a living ever. People ultimately do what is best for themselves most of the time, we need to change the culture so that they are more inclined to hang people like this out as example. It doesn't change the moral dissonance involved in the individuals or the group, but it breaks apart the trust that lets it maintain itself.

[Ryong]

Snake, I don't think you know the meaning of "passionate disagreement". Seeing every conflict in a binary "us vs them" where you burn bridges with anyone who doesn't fully agree with your extremism doesn't bring about tolerance, it just brings you closer to more extremists.

Stop treating opinions as a binary "with me/against me" deal. Just because someone doesn't agree with the same vehemence as you on an issue and isn't willing to fight for it as much as you, it doesn't mean they're against you.

Token is angry about this and has every right to be, but he's not exploding and going on a tirade about how every single aspect of the system is wrong with every single one of his posts.

[Loyal]

Snake I get where you're coming from but this community has, already, objectively demonstrated time and time again that it is flatly incapable of "handling the 'heat' of actually talking frankly about everything that actually matters." Like it or not if you want a community that can deal with that sort of gravity you need to find or create an atmosphere of like-minded individuals who actually want that as part of a 'mission statement' about who they, as a community, are. Not some ad-hoc community that came together to enjoy a sprite comic and shoot the shit. Not some community an eighth of its old size that only sticks together now either out of independent friendships or because they're too jaded and tired to leave.

Social Justice and the discussion of weighty matters in general has never been part of the cultural identity of this community, and such a thing does not change easily to begin with. Where this place is concerned it's almost certainly a lost cause. Remember that over the last ten years entire topics of discussion have been banned because this community was again incapable of handling it responsibly. There used to be a dedicated Discussion subforum which was eventually eliminated for the same reason.

[batgirl]

Ok, I've stayed quiet about my opinions on Ferguson on all social media, but here we go with this. Let me premise this by saying that I probably deal with cops a lot more than all of you do, on an hourly basis, as they come on all the calls I go on as a medic. They are there to protect me in case something bad happens, as people can sometimes behave irrationally and even violently when ill (notice I say people, not a particular race, creed, or religions as I work in one of the most racially diverse areas in the WORLD: Queens, New York).

Let's start with some facts, and let's leave race out of this for a second. Let's talk about Mike Brown facts.

FACT: Mike Brown was a criminal. There are varying reports about whether he had a criminal record, as he just turned 18, but just prior to his death he committed a criminal act. He committed a strong armed robbery (a felony) for some cigars, roughing up a store owner.

FACT: Mike Brown and his accomplice were walking in the middle of the road, impeding traffic flow.

FACT: When approached by Officer Wilson and asked to move out of the street, Mike Brown lunged at Officer Wilson in his own car and went for his gun.

This fact was confirmed via the autopsy which showed powder burns on Brown's thumb.

Now, none of us are cops, and I'd venture to say that none of us have ever been in this situation where you are being assaulted by a man 90 pounds larger than you who is trying to take a deadly weapon from you. At that moment, the Officer reacted with deadly force. Why? Because the thing that gets hammered into the minds of cops, paramedics and firemen is that the first thing we all do is GO BACK TO OUR FAMILIES AT THE END OF OUR SHIFT. I have a family, and you best be sure that if I go to a scene of a cardiac arrest and someone with a gun is in the building, you bet your ass I'm not going in until the person (again, PERSON) with a gun is gone and the scene is safe.

Personal story: Went to the scene of an unconscious female. Boyfriend in the house states his gf took some laced cocaine and oded. Woman is barely breathing and we get to work, bf goes into the other room to supposedly get his gf's id for us, comes back brandishing a meat cleaver and screaming at us that we aren't saving her fast enough, swinging at us. Cops tackle the man and we leave until the he has been secured in the cop car.

Yes, some cops are assholes, just like some paramedics are assholes, some firemen are assholes, some teachers are assholes, and some of every kind of people are assholes. To make blanket accusations is just showing ignorance.

Now, that's not to say that people don't have a right to be angry or express their opinions, because they do. But let me ask you this: Ferguson is a predominantly black area. People are angry about racism and white cops killing black lives right? So why oh why do people think that burning down black and other ethnic businesses (let's not forget that the store Mr. Brown robbed was looted during the protests and was owned by an man of Indian decent. Also a black owned and operated bakery was vandalized, among others) in their community would be a great way to show their anger? Shouldn't this be a time for people to come together and show solidarity as a community? Not when we have Mr. Brown's stepfather at the heart of the riots screaming, "burn this bitch down!"

End result is that if Mike Brown hadn't assaulted a cop and went to take his gun, he would still be alive today. A grand jury (that had black jurors on it, btw, since race is so important here) chose not to indict the officer. People are completely entitled to disagree with that, but the decision still stands and rioting, violence and arson will not change that. For every bad cop that hits someone necessarily that the media loves to report on, there's another good cop that helps an old lady across the road, or gives a homeless man a pair of boots, or buys a food for 30 people because their community center is closed for the day.

Oh, and the end of my personal story? Had there not been police on the scene of that call, I would have died in one of the RICHEST, WHITEST areas in all of Queens, at the hands of a RICH WHITE man.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Loyal

I've seen what you say about people when you think they aren't listening and I am unconvinced you believe - much less adhere - to a single word you've written here.

If you're going to descend into the realm of ambiguous ad hominem you might as well at least be explicit enough so I can actually respond to your accusation as opposed to deliberately leaving it vague enough that, y'know, half the goddamn forum may well suspect I'm lobbing grenades at them whenever they aren't on chat

And like, you can say all kinds of shit about me, but one thing that certainly isn't true is the insinuation that I'm passive-aggressive and non-confrontational. When I have problems with folks they generally know about it.

[Kim]

I didn't think anyone on this forum would actually resort to defending Mike Brown being murdered. So I guess I learned something new and depressing today.

Tho I can't say I'm surprised by people acting like after three months of justice being shat on and over-aggressive militarized police doing everything they can to push the protests to rioting that people still think anger and destruction of property is somehow unreasonable.

[batgirl]

Originally Posted by Kim

I didn't think anyone on this forum would actually resort to defending Mike Brown being murdered. So I guess I learned something new and depressing today.

Tho I can't say I'm surprised by people acting like after three months of justice being shat on and over-aggressive militarized police doing everything they can to push the protests to rioting that people still think anger and destruction of property is somehow unreasonable.

Sorry to have disappointed you. Again, we're all entitled to our opinion. I knew that my stance on this would not be the popular one, but I felt I'd put it out there regardless to try and provoke some meaningful debate.

[Solid Snake]

Honestly I think the crucial legal distinction here is between a Grand Jury Indictment and a Guilty Verdict.

The burden of proof for a grand jury indictment is much, much lower than the standard of 'beyond reasonable doubt' and, subsequently, it is exceedingly rare for a grand jury to decide not to indict. Exceedingly rare, that is, except when a cop would be defendant. Then, all of the sudden, it becomes abnormally likely that no indictment will be issued.

That problem is the direct spawn of the too-close-for-comfort relationships between prosecutors and police officers. After listening to this particular prosecutor present the decision I'm about 99.9% sure this case wasn't handled properly by District Attorneys.

And, honestly? If the case went to trial -- as it undeniably should have -- Officer Wilson could have still been found innocent! And I'm not even particularly sure I'd have had a problem with that outcome so long as it was a racially inclusive jury that wasn't pressured by authorities into rendering a particular verdict. After all, I don't have all the evidence. I have sufficient facts that have me very skeptical, however, and certainly there's enough facts that cast an exceptionally poor light of Wilson to ensure he should have been indicted. Again, indictments =/= guilty verdicts. And the community of Ferguson deserved a trial to find out the truth, Wilson absolutely should have been grilled in court.

As for the facts you've listed, Batgirl, I don't think anyone is contradicting the reality that Mike Brown committed a criminal act prior to being shot and killed. (I'm not sure if I buy into the tale of Brown subsequently attacking the police officer in the exact manner that the 'assault' has been described, though.) However, generally speaking, unarmed robbery suspects aren't supposed to be shot at twelve times.

And the drawn-out nature of the confrontation strikes me as extremely suspicious. Even the officer's account doesn't exactly leave sufficient leeway to imply that it was a spur of the moment, split second decision while being attacked -- that might explain one or two shots, certainly not twelve. We do know that the officer called for help and help apparently arrived something like fifteen or thirty seconds after Brown was killed -- that's Wilson's stipulation, not mine.

Now, none of us are cops, and I'd venture to say that none of us have ever been in this situation where you are being assaulted by a man 90 pounds larger than you who is trying to take a deadly weapon from you. At that moment, the Officer reacted with deadly force. Why? Because the thing that gets hammered into the minds of cops, paramedics and firemen is that the first thing we all do is GO BACK TO OUR FAMILIES AT THE END OF OUR SHIFT.

I'm pretty sure, at least in theory, a police officer's responsibility to the community supersedes the value of his own life -- that's part of the reason we (again, in theory) allow them to be armed, after all. Not for self-preservation but to serve and protect others. Not just themselves or their families, but their communities at large, including the very suspects they're empowered to arrest, under the theory that said arrests will protect the community.