"Doctor Who" or "Fallacies Therof" [POTENTIAL RISK OF SPOILERS WITHIN] - Page 21

The Sevenshot Kid · 10-02-2011, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stefan

do explain how. especially since it would, thematically, involve dehumanizing and killing what has been established as an Unique separate individual being, completely going back on the entire theme of the Flesh episodes, whereas the Tesseract is just a robot personship that The Doctor probably hotwired to the Tardis so he could control it more realistically.

It probably would have had more meaning if it were a ganger because audiences would get the feeling that a Doctor was making a sacrifice, regardless of him being the real Doctor or not.

stefan · 10-02-2011, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BloodyMage

My only concern really is, as rpgdemon mentioned, the regeneration energy. It really makes no sense for the android to be able to do that.

it makes no sense for The Ultimate Disguise Robot to be able to put on a light show? because really, that's all that its doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Sevenshot Kid

It probably would have had more meaning if it were a ganger because audiences would get the feeling that a Doctor was making a sacrifice, regardless of him being the real Doctor or not.

no, it would have felt far more like a cop-out, because after an entire episode talking about how "gangers aren't disposable automatons, they're real individuals with their own emotions and right to live," you would have essentially been saying "yeah, fuck all that, he's totally just a 1-up with no personal value."

The Sevenshot Kid · 10-02-2011, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stefan

no, it would have felt far more like a cop-out, because after an entire episode talking about how "gangers aren't disposable automatons, they're real individuals with their own emotions and right to live," you would have essentially been saying "yeah, fuck all that, he's totally just a 1-up with no personal value."

It all depends on execution, my friend. All it would take was a short, but really emotional scene, where the ganger convinces the Doctor to let him die in his stead would have gone a long way.

I don't even have a real problem with the method of saving the Doctor they used. I just hate how it was played for laughs. It robbed the season of all emotion stemming from the Doctor's death.

stefan · 10-02-2011, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Sevenshot Kid

It all depends on execution, my friend. All it would take was a short, but really emotional scene, where the ganger convinces the Doctor to let him die in his stead would have gone a long way.

no it wouldn't, because no matter how you try to play it, it would still come down to "11 is a real person, ganger!doctor is not, therefore Ganger!doctor has less of a right to live." In fact, "The Girl Who Waited" seemed to be doubly hammering this idea home, since the end dilemma of that episode was that there was no one "real" amy and one "fake" amy, and that anyone who tried to argue one way or the other has to be some kind of monster.

this was actually something of a major issue during the break in all of the discussion groups I was in, because at the time Ganger!doctor seemed like the only "out," and everyone was pretty unhappy with the implications and hypocrisy that would bring.

Quote:

I don't even have a real problem with the method of saving the Doctor they used. I just hate how it was played for laughs. It robbed the season of all emotion stemming from the Doctor's death.

I heavily disagree with you on this, but I can see where you're coming from. This is particular element is more a matter of opinion than anything.

rpgdemon · 10-02-2011, 11:02 PM

I've watched the episode twice. How was it played for laughs?

The Sevenshot Kid · 10-02-2011, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpgdemon

I've watched the episode twice. How was it played for laughs?

The whole bit where he came back into that scene with the robot duplicate saying, and I'm paraphrasing here, "Oh, one more thing!" It came off as too jokey for my tastes.

rpgdemon · 10-02-2011, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Sevenshot Kid

The whole bit where he came back into that scene with the robot duplicate saying, and I'm paraphrasing here, "Oh, one more thing!" It came off as too jokey for my tastes.

He left, then came back going, "Wait, actually! Yeah! You can!"

Professor Smarmiarty · 10-03-2011, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stefan

no, it would have felt far more like a cop-out, because after an entire episode talking about how "gangers aren't disposable automatons, they're real individuals with their own emotions and right to live," you would have essentially been saying "yeah, fuck all that, he's totally just a 1-up with no personal value."

Quote:

Originally Posted by stefan

no it wouldn't, because no matter how you try to play it, it would still come down to "11 is a real person, ganger!doctor is not, therefore Ganger!doctor has less of a right to live." In fact, "The Girl Who Waited" seemed to be doubly hammering this idea home, since the end dilemma of that episode was that there was no one "real" amy and one "fake" amy, and that anyone who tried to argue one way or the other has to be some kind of monster.

this was actually something of a major issue during the break in all of the discussion groups I was in, because at the time Ganger!doctor seemed like the only "out," and everyone was pretty unhappy with the implications and hypocrisy that would bring.

I heavily disagree with you on this, but I can see where you're coming from. This is particular element is more a matter of opinion than anything.

Unless it's an amy ganger.
Cause Doctor has exploded a ganger before. He like "Fuck you abomination" and then pointed his screwdriver at her and she went kablooie!

Steel Shadow · 10-03-2011, 02:16 AM

Technically he just severed the link between Amy and the Ganger. The thing went kablooie all on it's own.

Also, coming back with "Actually!" was more 'entirely in character for eleven' then 'played for laughs'.

Pacing was a problem for the entire latter half of the series, and thus they tried to fit the entire wrap up into one episode, hence the lack of time spent on the strange world they made for it, and all the other interesting little side things that could have gone into the script, but didn't. Would have been nice for them to go into more things, but they didn't have time, so... Meh.

It is all in the execution. However, saying 'it was actually a Ganger!' would have been many levels worse an execution than what they did go for.

And much as the Brigadier's actor's death pains me, I still want him to be around, damnit! Let a fan grieve.

Professor Smarmiarty · 10-03-2011, 02:27 AM

I didn't kill him copper. I just locked him in a room with no food or water. He died of natural causes!

10-02-2011, 11:02 PM	#205
rpgdemon Not a Taco Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 3,313	I've watched the episode twice. How was it played for laughs? __________________ I did a lot of posting on here as a teenager, and I was pretty awful. Even after I learned, grew up, and came to be on the right side of a lot of important issues, I was still angry, abrasive, and generally increased the amount of hate in the world, in pretty unacceptable ways. On the off chance that someone is taking a trip down memory lane looking through those old threads, I wanted to devote my signature to say directly to you, I'm sorry. Thank you for letting me be better, NPF.

10-03-2011, 02:16 AM	#209
Steel Shadow Mild Psychosis Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Aroundabouts thereish. Posts: 1,246	Since I'm here anyways... Technically he just severed the link between Amy and the Ganger. The thing went kablooie all on it's own. Also, coming back with "Actually!" was more 'entirely in character for eleven' then 'played for laughs'. Pacing was a problem for the entire latter half of the series, and thus they tried to fit the entire wrap up into one episode, hence the lack of time spent on the strange world they made for it, and all the other interesting little side things that could have gone into the script, but didn't. Would have been nice for them to go into more things, but they didn't have time, so... Meh. It is all in the execution. However, saying 'it was actually a Ganger!' would have been many levels worse an execution than what they did go for. And much as the Brigadier's actor's death pains me, I still want him to be around, damnit! Let a fan grieve. __________________ Yeah, I'm understating. I do that sometimes. Last edited by Steel Shadow; 10-03-2011 at 02:21 AM.

10-03-2011, 02:27 AM	#210
Professor Smarmiarty Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: K-space Posts: 9,758	I didn't kill him copper. I just locked him in a room with no food or water. He died of natural causes!