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Unread 08-29-2011, 04:00 AM   #51
Nique
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The episode failed at everything that Moffat's Who run was doing right. I don't care that River Song is someone else for a while or about regeneration and TARDIS rules and stuff that is easy to explain away becuase it's Doctor Who - But to have no kind of meaningful exploration of the issues surrounding traveling back in time to interact with Hitler, discovering that you've lost your child only to have grown up side by side her, or the ethics of torturing long-dead villains of the past? The episode was empty and haphazard in so many ways. Easily the most disappointing episode of new Who.

Characters and meaningful drama are driving season 5 and 6 HARD. This episode ignored crucial opportunities for Amy and Rory's development and ruined a lot of what was good about River Song who was, previously, an independent and mysterious character who could stand as equal to the Doctor in her own right. Now her entire character is dependent on the Doctor which makes their romantic relationship extremely weird to me.

At the very least they could have given us an episode that was a break from all the drama and just punched Hitler in the face a million times.

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Rose and Jack and Grace were better.
Rose was annoying until she was a side-character, Grace I have no frame of reference for but would guess that Donna was more entertaining. Jack was awesome though.
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Unread 08-29-2011, 04:03 AM   #52
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And when are they going to get rid of the daft Amy recap between the cold open and the theme sequence?

What's the point of having a bitching theme if you break the combo like that. And we all know who the Doctor is, yeesh.
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Unread 08-29-2011, 04:04 AM   #53
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This may have been touched on already but it's strictly an American thing. I hate it too.
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Unread 08-29-2011, 04:10 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Archbio View Post
And when are they going to get rid of the daft Amy recap between the cold open and the theme sequence?

What's the point of having a bitching theme if you break the combo like that. And we all know who the Doctor is, yeesh.
We totally don't get that in Britain episodes.

I totally agree with all the criticisms of the episodes that why I just said Blerrrrgh or something similar. As there was not a lot to work with character/story wise that's why I'm discussing ridiculous theories about gangers and whether the tardis can shrink or not. Cause the rest of it was prettty nonsense. Mostly becuase River sucks.
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Unread 08-29-2011, 04:14 AM   #55
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Characters and meaningful drama are driving season 5 and 6 HARD. This episode ignored crucial opportunities for Amy and Rory's development and ruined a lot of what was good about River Song who was, previously, an independent and mysterious character who could stand as equal to the Doctor in her own right. Now her entire character is dependent on the Doctor which makes their romantic relationship extremely weird to me.
Would you mind expanding on this more? Specifically, what has made her less independent? I would also argue that any inclusion of more of her story, regardless of what it was/is/becomes, will necessarilly do away with much of the mystery (heck we even were told from the start we'd get it all), but I am interested in hearing your thoughts [or others, I suppose?] on why this one episode has "ruined" Melody Pond or somehow altered her relationship with the Doctor from what it was before. Clearly it should show that I don't agree, but I totally enjoy talkin' about this series with my friends and seeing how that affects my opinion.
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Unread 08-29-2011, 04:29 AM   #56
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It was a pretty ridiculous turnaround from "I'm going to kill the Doctor" to "oh no the doctor is dying, et's give him all my lives". She always seemed much more headstrong than that. I didn't buy it anyway.
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Unread 08-29-2011, 04:55 AM   #57
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Hmm. Well, clearly the 'mystery' of River Song was bound to be revealed and I don't have an issue with that. And it's not that the nature of her association with the Doctor makes the fictional person of River less independent or impressive within the universe she exists in, exactly, though it could. It's more that she is now less interesting to watch as one of the Doctor's associates in that, just like every other companion, he is more or less directly responsible for who she is. For one, it makes viewing her as a character less interesting and it misses an opportunity to give us another truly cool character like Jack was. For another thing, it makes the person, River, no longer an equal to the Doctor - he is her idol, in a way, and, as I said, that makes me feel weird about their romance.

I guess to try and simplify that - River was more interesting and empowered when she appeared to have her own life and motivations outside of the Doctor, even though he was clearly an important influence. Now that all of her motives and actions revolve around or stem from the Doctor, I find her much more boring.

I've always liked the character and I can see how someone wouldn't really adopt this perspective on it - Maybe I'm biased in what I was expecting for the character. I don't think so though as I was totally ok with River being part Timelord and being Amy's daughter. It was this specific episode that added in elements I felt weakened the character.
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Unread 08-29-2011, 05:15 AM   #58
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I would also argue that any inclusion of more of her story, regardless of what it was/is/becomes, will necessarilly do away with much of the mystery (heck we even were told from the start we'd get it all), but I am interested in hearing your thoughts [or others, I suppose?] on why this one episode has "ruined" Melody Pond[...]
There's "doing away" with mystery by showing more elements of a story onscreen, and there's substracting from the amount of detail in the story, which is what I feel they did here. It's the first episode with brainwashed Melody Pond as such... and she doesn't even make it to the end as brainwashed Melody Pond, as the Doctor has all but triumphed over the conditioning by the end.*

So not only has Melody Pond been skipped right to looking like Alex Kingston (instead of there being more done with her regenerating nature, which could have provided, among other things, some illustration for her character arc,) but she also seems to be most of the way to being River Song in mind as well. Suddenly her story seems much shorter than it did one episode ago. Much more cramped.

*Though my prediction is that The Doctor's death (when he stops running) will turn out to be about freeing Melody from her programming by fulfilling its objective by sacrificing himself.
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Unread 08-29-2011, 05:21 AM   #59
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I never found River all that interesting. She's always felt like a writer's pet character to me. Also I dislike the actress playing her. I didn't mind her so much in her first appearance; I think she worked better with Tennant the actor and Doctor number ten.

I've found her and her affect on the plot and writing quality progressively more offensive in each appearance since. Now she's fooling the Doctor with things that don't even make sense. He KNOWS she uses poison lipstick. It's a big part of her modus operandi, and the scene made a point of showing that he was one hundred percent absolutely prepared for her to try and kill him to the point of knowing where she'd reach for a gun. And somehow he's just not ready for her to do the very thing that he knows she does all the time in the future? I could almost buy that being a genuine mistake because that stuff is in the future, but then they're all like "it's the one thing he couldn't account for!" The fuck? And this kind of thing happens constantly when River is involved in the plot. Just like not checking the baby in When a Good Man Goes to War. As soon as it's a River Song episode, the Doctor starts getting written stupid.
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Unread 08-29-2011, 05:30 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Archbio
Much more cramped.
And far less substance, as a result.

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*Though my prediction is that The Doctor's death (when he stops running) will turn out to be about freeing Melody from her programming by fulfilling its objective by sacrificing himself.
Wow. I really hope it's this or something equally as interesting. I think the Doctor's ganger will play a role in keeping the Doctor alive if he hasn't already (I think it was Smarty who suggested that at some point in this episode or between this one and the last episode that the Doctor had retrieved his ganger who, presumably, would not normally be capable of regeneration and received all of River's regeneration energy).

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As soon as it's a River Song episode, the Doctor starts getting written stupid.
Not that I agree, but I wonder if the writers will come to feel about River Song as Douglas Adams came to feel about Fenchurch. A lot of fans dislike her a lot.

Although, you really don't like Alex Kingston? I've always thought she was pretty excellent.
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