USA PATRIOT Act

Roy_D_Mylote · 08-30-2006, 03:54 PM

If this has been discussed to death here, please pardon me, I wasn't around...

Since I have to write a paper on this thing, I want to know what you average Internet users think about the legislation.

Whale Biologist · 08-30-2006, 04:05 PM

WOOOOOOO! Loaded question...

Well, since a good portion of it was struck down / not renewed last year (some of the most Big Brother bits), I have less of a problem with it, but it will still go down in history as one of the greatest legal fascist documents ever. Under the guise of the PATRIOT Act, FBI agents went accross INTERNATIONAL borders, busted down the door of a Canadian company, took their computers and files, and then went BACK TO AMERICA... and no-one stopped them.

The PATRIOT Act is a terror mnemomic... when you hear it, your judgement goes down the tubes. None of the hundreds of Canadian law enforcement officials stopped the FBI agents, out of sheer terror at pissing off someone who was using the PATRIOT Act as an excuse for unbelievable behavior. It's particularly funny, since the FBI has not returned the computers or files, or even stated what about that particular company (co-owned by Americans) was so troubling that they had to cross international borders to steal their stuff without a warrant.

The PATRIOT Act was drawn up to grant the American government unspecified blanket powers which they could use, at any time, without warning, bypassing any level of government that could possibly disagree with them. The language is so fantastically ambiguous that some passages have been cited for several completely unrelated reasons, because the language could be defined as being applicable to so many different situations.

*pant wheeze* My fingers are sore...

This part is the one that scares me the most, because it has the least obsfucating language: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act%2C_Title_V - Removing Obstacles to Investigating Terrorism. I prefer my title: "We Can Do Whatever We Want Now". This section applies to ANYONE who has EVER committed a crime, extending it's use FAR beyond terrorist activities, and as a reason to genetically tag anyone who has ever committed a crime (which, as a function of ratios, is: poor people, black people, and Mexicans). Super.

I'll shut up and let someone else go at it.

Roy_D_Mylote · 08-30-2006, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whale Biologist

WOOOOOOO! Loaded question...

There was no question.

Quote:

(some of the most Big Brother bits),

That's silly. The USA PATRIOT Act wasn't even close to the government of 1984.

Quote:

the PATRIOT Act, FBI agents went accross INTERNATIONAL borders, busted down the door of a Canadian company, took their computers and files, and then went BACK TO AMERICA... and no-one stopped them.

Technically, it's the USA PATRIOT Act. And when did the Canada thing happen? I'd be interested in hearing more.

Quote:

which, as a function of ratios, is: poor people, black people, and Mexicans

What?

Whale Biologist · 08-30-2006, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy_D_Mylote

There was no question.

You basically asked "What do you think of the USA PATRIOT Act?" Therefore, with a little bit of creative license, I called it a loaded 'question'. Ok, then, 'loaded inquiry'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy_D_Mylote

That's silly. The USA PATRIOT Act wasn't even close to the government of 1984.

I know. However, it did grant some extreme powers of surveillance and privacy invasion which are reminiscient, in many ways, of the book.

Also, I am trying to find the link to that article, but it was a few years ago, so bear with me.

And lastly, if you commit burglary in the United States, it is statistically probably that you are either poor, black, or Mexican. Wealthy white people often don't rob gas stations.

Roy_D_Mylote · 08-30-2006, 04:22 PM

Okay, loaded Inquiry I accept.

Well, okay. (lazy and don't feel good, can't keep cutting up quotes)

Bearing with.

Whale Biologist · 08-30-2006, 04:27 PM

Crap, every search string I can think of pulls up the Scientology raids. Uhm... you won't take my word for it, so in the interest of bias, ignore what I said about the FBI raid. Stupid Internet.... I thought I'd saved the link somewhere.

Solid Snake · 08-30-2006, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whale Biologist

And lastly, if you commit burglary in the United States, it is statistically probably that you are either poor, black, or Mexican. Wealthy white people often don't rob gas stations.

I'm just noting the irony here that you're implicitly supporting racial profiling by quoting statistics to back the probability of a burgular being poor, black or Mexican.

It's not entirely unlike quoting statistics, for example, to back the probability of an ethnically Arabic individual being responsible for committing terrorist acts.

Whether you're ultimately using the statistics to "promote" or "refute" racism, or societal institutions you deem "racist", is irrelevant. It's profiling any way you slice it.

Anywhoo, back on topic: and here is where I find myself agreeing with Whale Biologist, at least to an extent. The Patriot Act was not good. Not at all. It was paved with good intentions, certainly, but it was a road that would have quickly descended into hell. I'm glad most of it's been gutted.

I wouldn't quite classify it as "fascist", or anything near the caliber of 1984, but it did set an ugly precedent.

Roy_D_Mylote · 08-30-2006, 05:01 PM

I'd take your word for it.

Whale Biologist · 08-30-2006, 05:05 PM

There's a difference between quoting an available statistic, and getting DNA samples and tracking their movements throughout the country. If I had my way (and I don't), someones ethnic background wouldn't have to be recorded when willing out a criminal report, because someones ethnic background would not be important.

Sort of like on a job I applied for, it had a box that said (I swear to whatever God you believe in) "To ensure equality, please fill in the following: []Ethnic Background (with choices) []Age []Sex". Wouldn't it ensure equality if I DIDN'T fill those out?

Also, if it were truly 'fascist', it wouldn't have needed the legalese, but it was definitely undemocratic.

Solid Snake · 08-30-2006, 05:15 PM

Well, just to provide you a concrete example of what the Patriot Act did, Roy (since I don't know whether or not you're being sarcastic);

One of the provisions in the Patriot Act called for "immunity against prosecution for the providers of wiretaps."

Essentially meaning that if a phone company or your internet provider decides that they're going to help the government spy on your sorry arse and read your e-mails / listen to your phone conversations, you can't respond by suing them. Despite the fact that the phone companies won't tell you what they're doing. That's screwing around with your privacy, end of story, and unfortunately it's one of the elements of the Patriot Act that the government is still toying with, hence we have the NSA wiretapping scandal, which Cheney's still promoting as totally legal.

08-30-2006, 03:54 PM	#1
Roy_D_Mylote Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: The sky. Posts: 1,030	USA PATRIOT Act If this has been discussed to death here, please pardon me, I wasn't around... Since I have to write a paper on this thing, I want to know what you average Internet users think about the legislation. __________________ I hate roleclaims.

08-30-2006, 04:22 PM	#5
Roy_D_Mylote Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: The sky. Posts: 1,030	Okay, loaded Inquiry I accept. Well, okay. (lazy and don't feel good, can't keep cutting up quotes) Bearing with. __________________ I hate roleclaims.

08-30-2006, 05:01 PM	#8
Roy_D_Mylote Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: The sky. Posts: 1,030	I'd take your word for it. __________________ I hate roleclaims.

08-30-2006, 05:15 PM	#10
Solid Snake Erotic Esquire Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,563	Well, just to provide you a concrete example of what the Patriot Act did, Roy (since I don't know whether or not you're being sarcastic); One of the provisions in the Patriot Act called for "immunity against prosecution for the providers of wiretaps." Essentially meaning that if a phone company or your internet provider decides that they're going to help the government spy on your sorry arse and read your e-mails / listen to your phone conversations, you can't respond by suing them. Despite the fact that the phone companies won't tell you what they're doing. That's screwing around with your privacy, end of story, and unfortunately it's one of the elements of the Patriot Act that the government is still toying with, hence we have the NSA wiretapping scandal, which Cheney's still promoting as totally legal. __________________ *WARNING:* Snek's all up in this thread. Be prepared to read massive walls of text.

08-30-2006, 04:05 PM	#2
Whale Biologist Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wibble Posts: 305	WOOOOOOO! Loaded question... Well, since a good portion of it was struck down / not renewed last year (some of the most Big Brother bits), I have less of a problem with it, but it will still go down in history as one of the greatest legal fascist documents ever. Under the guise of the PATRIOT Act, FBI agents went accross INTERNATIONAL borders, busted down the door of a Canadian company, took their computers and files, and then went BACK TO AMERICA... and no-one stopped them. The PATRIOT Act is a terror mnemomic... when you hear it, your judgement goes down the tubes. None of the hundreds of Canadian law enforcement officials stopped the FBI agents, out of sheer terror at pissing off someone who was using the PATRIOT Act as an excuse for unbelievable behavior. It's particularly funny, since the FBI has not returned the computers or files, or even stated what about that particular company (co-owned by Americans) was so troubling that they had to cross international borders to steal their stuff without a warrant. The PATRIOT Act was drawn up to grant the American government unspecified blanket powers which they could use, at any time, without warning, bypassing any level of government that could possibly disagree with them. The language is so fantastically ambiguous that some passages have been cited for several completely unrelated reasons, because the language could be defined as being applicable to so many different situations. pant wheeze My fingers are sore... This part is the one that scares me the most, because it has the least obsfucating language: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act%2C_Title_V - Removing Obstacles to Investigating Terrorism. I prefer my title: "We Can Do Whatever We Want Now". This section applies to ANYONE who has EVER committed a crime, extending it's use FAR beyond terrorist activities, and as a reason to genetically tag anyone who has ever committed a crime (which, as a function of ratios, is: poor people, black people, and Mexicans). Super. I'll shut up and let someone else go at it.

08-30-2006, 04:27 PM	#6
Whale Biologist Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wibble Posts: 305	Crap, every search string I can think of pulls up the Scientology raids. Uhm... you won't take my word for it, so in the interest of bias, ignore what I said about the FBI raid. Stupid Internet.... I thought I'd saved the link somewhere.

08-30-2006, 05:05 PM	#9
Whale Biologist Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wibble Posts: 305	There's a difference between quoting an available statistic, and getting DNA samples and tracking their movements throughout the country. If I had my way (and I don't), someones ethnic background wouldn't have to be recorded when willing out a criminal report, because someones ethnic background would not be important. Sort of like on a job I applied for, it had a box that said (I swear to whatever God you believe in) "To ensure equality, please fill in the following: []Ethnic Background (with choices) []Age []Sex". Wouldn't it ensure equality if I DIDN'T fill those out? Also, if it were truly 'fascist', it wouldn't have needed the legalese, but it was definitely undemocratic.